Mitchell Library, State Library of New South Wales

New South Wales. Royal Commission to Enquire into Crime in the Braidwood District - minutes of evidence, 25 January-6 February 1867
MLMSS 508 / Item 10

[Transcriber's note - There are numerous sections to this record – they are not in chronological order.]

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N.S.W. – Royal Commission to Enquire
into Crime in the Braidwood District –
Minutes of Evidence
25 Jan. – 6 Feb. 1867

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Royal Commission to enquire into Crime in the Braidwood District
Minutes of Evidence
25 Jan – 6 Feb 1867

A Royal Commission consisting of P.L. Cloete, J.S. Richardson, D.H. Campbell, J. Leary and E. Fosbery was appointed to enquire into "the conduct of the Magistrates and Police with reference to the crime of bushranging in the district of Braidwood and surrounding country ... to inquire into the state of population in relation to the existance and encouragement of crime, more especially in the neighbourhood of Jingera ...."
The commission was appointed on 22nd January, 1967 by Govenor John Young. The bushrangers referred to were the Clarkes, Connells and others.

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1. The report of the Royal Commission, and a summary of minutes and actual commission are printed in Votes and Proceedings of the Legislative Assembly, 1867-8, Vol. II. p 115-125. No printed copy of these minutes has been located. (The Minutes of Evidence before this Commission were not ordered to be printed by the Legislative Assembly)

2. The provenance of these documents is in doubt as they were purchased by David Scott Mitchell from sources ubnknown, it is possible they may be Legislative Council or Colonial Secretary’s papers

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Braidwood Commission (39)

Saturday 2nd February 1867

Present
Mr Campbell (President)
Mr Cloete
Mr Leary
Mr Fosbery
Col: Richardson

Mr John Musgrave called in and examined

The President: what are you – Proprietor of the Braidwood Despatch

Do you remember the cattle stealing case in which a person named Mullins was concerned? Yes.

Will you be good enough to state the case and the circumstances connected with it? The case is one that caused a great outcry at the time, as being a very unjust thing in reference to another case that was brought by one of the parties who was considered implicated in the

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matters. There were three cows stolen and a butcher at Araluen, named Perry, who had given £ 2-10 a head for them, was prosecuted as the receiver while the prosecution against the thief was withdrawn.

What was the name of the thief? The thief was a man named Thomas Hedrington, who goes by the name of Bungy; he was in the employ of Michael Gallagher, of Long Flat, and had been formerly in the employ of Hassall and Roberts – brought up by them as a boy in fact.

Was Perry convicted? He was, and sentenced to three years imprisonment. the reason assigned for his being prosecuted so severely as the receiver was that he was in competition with Hassall and Roberts in selling cattle

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at Araluen – that he did not buy his cattle, as all the rest of the butchers did, from Hassall and Roberts.

Who was the Judge in this case? Mr Holroyd. This of course is irrespective of the Mullins case altogether. It happened prior to Mullins’s case.

Were you present when the case was heard? I was.

When you say this Perry was so rigorously prosecuted in consequence of the relation in which he stood to Mr. Hassall, how do you mean that he was rigorously prosecuted – in what manner? I do not say he was rigorously prosecuted by Mr. Hassall himself, but he was rigorously prosecuted by the Crown – by the officers in charge of the District.

Who were the officers engaged in the prosecution? The police were the parties

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who instituted the primary proceedings.

Did you notice any indifference on the part of Mr Hassall in the prosecution, or did he take any active part with the authorities in prosecuting? I could not say that; but I am mentioning that this was the reason of the outcry on the part of the public, on account of the motive they considered Mr. Hassall had – this man not purchasing cattle from him. As bearing upon that I have heard myself from a butcher’s wife in this town that Mr Hassall had sometime previously stated that he would get Perry out of that if he could.

What is her name? Mrs Edwards.

Mr Hassall told Mrs Edwards? He did not tell

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Mrs Edwards herself, I understood her to say she heard him tell her husband when he was alive, I am not quite clear whether she heard him or whether her husband told her to. Edwards was dead at the time she told me this – that Mr. Hassall said he would clear Perry out of Araluen as soon as he could.

While this trial was pending? It was afterwards she told me, but it was prior to the charge that W. Hassall told her husband this. Of course I was not told to make use of that in any way.

Did any of the authorities display any partiality in the trial referred to, when you were present? No, I cannot say I observed any undue partiality.

You connect this case with Mullin’s case? I do not connect them, except that it seemed to me very great

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partiality in the authorities that they so carefully abstained from bringing Mr Hassall into any guilty knowledge of buying the cattle in Mullins’s case when they had prosecuted Perry as the guilty receiver in Bungy’s case, although he had bought the cattle openly for £2-10 a head, had got a receipt for them, and had driven them to his yard.

By "The authorities" do you mean the police authorities? I mean the police authorities, and I may also go further and name the Crown Prosecutor in the District Court.

Who was the Crown Prosecutor? Mr. Templeton.

In what way did the Crown Prosecutor show his partiality? In stopping the attorney for the prisoner, Mr. Fell,

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in any questions by which he wished to elicit anything unfavourable to Mr Hassall. There was a witness brought up to show the small price at which these cattle were sold in proportion to their value, who valued them at from £2-10 to £ 3 a head.

Who was the wit refs? A man named Simeon Jennings.
Is he a competent judge of the value of cattle? Yes, he is a farmer of long standing in the District.
What was the price paid? The price paid was said to be 18/- a head.

The Crown Prosecutor showed no partiality, in my opinion, in this way, that when there was an effort made by the Counsel for the prisoner to reflect upon the delivery of these cattle by eliciting evidence to that effect, he always

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stopped such evidence and appealed to his Honor that it had no connection whatever with the charge against the prisoner; and when these questions were being put, and during the interim when it was referred to His Honor’s decision, the Crown Prosecutor came from his place at the table and conferred with Mr Hassall at the opposite side of the table.

How did the Judge decide the point? The Judge decided the point as I considered naturally rested with the case, that a guilty knowledge of receiving them had nothing whatever in law to do with the guilt of the person who stole them, and that he could not understand the line taken by the prisoner’s counsel in trying to elicit this guilty knowledge on the part of the

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receiver, as it seemed to him only to make the case worse against the prisoner. But of course I saw the nature of the questions on the part of the Council for the prisoner, as giving way to the outcry that was made and desiring to bring some guilty knowledge against the receiver if his client was presented to bring the other in also. That was the motive in my opinion, that influenced the counsel for the prisoner.

Can you mention an instance of the police interfering in an unseemly manner on this occasion? I can only mention an instance of what I consider on the part of the police. I am not quite certain whether my ideas on the subject are correct, but it is the idea of a great many, and it is the idea of a great many, and it is my idea, that when those cattle were stolen they

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were stolen in small quantities, different people’s cattle, this mob of 68 or 70 – As many as that in Mullins case? Yes

That Mr Hassell purchased ? Yes. there were three claimants for I think 22 head of them. There were 64 head bought, I think and 4 head given in. That was Mr Hassall’s evidence. In my knowledge of these things in this District, it has been usual, when there has been a mob of cattle or horses, so many of which have been stolen, and there were reasonable grounds to suppose they had all been stolen from different parties, to seize the whole mob and call for claimants, but in place of that, in this case, the thieves were not apprehended for upwards of

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a week after the transaction became known, and when Sergeant Duffy went down to Shoalhaven with one of the parties’ who was commissioned, I believe, by the other parties’ losing cattle to look after theirs also, he only brought back six or eight head. This man was very much dissatisfied that he could not get the whole of his cattle. There was a great outcry made at the time – I can mention one, a man named McGrath – and the supposition was that they were all stolen. The want of duty that I considered there was on the part of Mr. Bridge was that Mrs Doyle came and applied for a search warrant to

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search Mr. DeMestres’ run for his cattle, and he did not get it. Mr Bridge stated afterwards that he did not refuse the search warrant. I say that in justice to Mr. Bridge.

Have you any other statement to make in reference to this case? No.

Mr. Fosbery: You have stated that Perry was rigorously prosecuted in consequence of Mr. Hassell’s influence? No, I did not state that that was the reason of the outcry against him – because it was assumed.

You stated that this outcry was made in consequence of it being assumed that Mr. Hassall’s influence was used? Yes.

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Then I infer from that the public infered Hassall had some influence over some of the authorities? Yes. I might state, in reference to Mullins’s case, that I saw Mr. Hassall speaking to Mullins on the Market Square prior to a warrant being issued for his apprehension.

Subsequent to the sale of the cattle? Yes, of course, and subsequent to Mr. Hassall’s knowledge that there were stolen.

Can you infer that this suspicion of undue influence on W. Hassalls’ part was directed against any particular member of the police force? I could not mathematically demonstrate it, but I am of opinion that Mr. Hassall exerted undue influence upon Mr. Bridge, the Superintendent of Police, and from my knowledge of the District and the people here, I am quite positive that

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the whole transaction, in reference to the guilty receiving of the cattle, has had a most minimal effect upon the community at large.

Mullins’s case is still pending? Yes, I believe it is. The Jury would not agree.

Is there not a brother or some connection of his, concerned in the case, still at large? Yes.

Are you aware there is a warrant for his apprehension out? I believe there is.

Are you aware who laid the information for obtaining these warrants? I believe it was Mr. Hassall who informed the police.

I mean laid the information with a view to issuing the warrants. No.

Do you consider there was in the evidence in this case

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sufficient to justify a position of Mr Hassall for receiving these cattle with a guilty knowledge of these having been stolen? I could not say legally whether with the evidence that was out, there was; but I am of opinion that had the case been inquired into it is quite possible there may not have been official evidence obtained to warrant prosecution of Mr. Hassall. I cannot state, from what I know of the case, that at present there is, because there may be some evidence that I am not aware of that would destroy all inference of guilty knowledge. But from the main facts of the case, I certainly do say there was sufficient to cause a strict investigation prior to proceedings being taken against Mr. Hassall, because I believe from Simon Jennings evidence that, if not worth this

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full price he named, they were worth from £2 to £2-10 per head.

Was there any evidence in a contrary direction? I believe there was evidence of Mr. Hassall’s having bought some cattle at 11d/- or 12d/- a head, but that was in the time of extreme drought. It was the right of brand he bought, and he had to run in these cattle from a very simple run; they were cattle belonging to an old man who never had a stockman, and who never attended to his breed of cattle, and these cattle had been breeding on and in for nearly twenty years and were known to be a very scrubby lot; I have heard parties say, in reference to them, that they would not run them in if they had them for nothing.

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Was this purchase of cattle by Mr Hassall from Mullins in connection with any other purchase of cattle – Was he collecting cattle at the same time from other parties? This was a special sale, from my knowledge of the case, I never heard anything come out in evidence to show that he had been. There were two lots of cattle bought from Mullins.

All stolen? It is assumed they were all stolen, I do not know whether they were all stolen or not.

Had Mullins any cattle of his own? It is supposed he had none.

He was not a man likely to have sixty or seventy head of cattle to sell? He was not a man anybody would trust a pound to.

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Prosecution of Mullins was conducted with sufficient vigor – to whom do you attribute any neglect? I think it was conducted vigorously enough against Mullins, I say the neglect of duty was in not learning whether there was a case for proseuction against the receiver under the circumstance I have mentioned, the small price.

Do you think Sergeant Duffy in proceeding to Mr. DeMestres’ station and searching for these cattle and bringing back such a small number, fulfilled all the duty of the Police in reference to this matter? No, I do not.

Do you think they should have taken other steps? I think the whole of the cattle should have been taken before they were lost sight of. This man Doyle informed me some three months ago that he has been informed of eight head of his cattle down there at Mr. DeMestre’s and he said that Mr. Hassall had told him he would not give

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him these cattle now, that he could so and take them, so that showed there were more cattle there that were stolen by by these eight head afterwards turning up.

How long after this sale did Doyle lay the information against Mullins – was it immediately not some controversy. I believe it was a very short time after; I am not certain as to the time.

Before the cattle left this district? Not before the cattle left his district, but while they were at Mr. DeMestres’ before the warrants were issued? Yes.

Mr. Cloete: At the time of the purchase of these cattle from Mullins by Mr Hassall, was it a dry season? It was after a dry season.

Had not cattle depreciated very much in value then? The had depreciated in value, but as to those twenty four head of cattle that these parties

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lost, they swore to their cattle as worth from £4 to £5 a head.

What were they – store cattle? No, milking cows.

How is it Mr Hassall profeses such influence over the authorities here, as you say he does – Can you account for that? I cannot account for that.

Have you known any magistrates to be influenced by Mr. Hassall on the Bench? No, I cannot say I have.

Is Mr. Hassall a regular attendant on the Bench himself? No.
Does he particularly avoid sitting? He does.

Does he avoid sitting on any particular cases? He does, in any cases in reference to the bushrangers.

Does Mr. Hassall entertain those public officers at his

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house? I cannot say that he does, only from hearing parties say they have been to Mr Hassalls’.

Do you know a man called Hickey at Irish Corner? Yes.
Is he connected in anyway with Mr Hassall? I do not know.

Do you remember Clarke’s surrendering himself about three years ago? Yes.

Do you know to whom he surrendered? No.

Did Mr Hassall bring him? I believe he did, i did not see him.

Clarke was bailed out? Yes.

Are you aware he was immediately afterwards at the Moruya races? Yes.

Do you know whether it was stated before he was bailed or that he surrendered for the purpose of going to these races? It was stated so

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Had he racehorses running there? Yes

Was any particular interest shown in Michael Connell’s case of Mr Hassall? I was present in the Court when Mr Hassall came on the Bench; he did not remain on the ench the whole time, i believe, but he was favourabale to giving bail.

Do you know who the bondsmen were? I do not remember them now.

Do you know a man called Simeon Cory? Yes.

Do you remember his being tried here for his dealings? Yes.

What was his general character at the time? He had not had a very good character for some time.

On what accounts – what was the peculiar style of bad character he professed - harrassing bushrangers ? Being connected

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with the bushrangers.

Are you aware that a good character was given to him? I do not remember.

Do you remember Mr. Rutledge giving him a character? No, I do not remember Mr Rutledge’s character of Cory.

Did he give a man called Bradley a character? Yes.
What character? A very good character.
When was that? Last session’s.

What was Bradley tried for? For sticking up Mr Taylor’s at Little Bombay.

With arms? With arms.

In company with whom? The two Clarkes.

He was tried for that? Yes.

What sentence did he get? Six or seven years, I am not sure which.

Who was the Judge? Acting Judge Simpson I think.

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Do you consider six years for such an offence a harsh or mild sentence? I consider it a very mild sentence.

Do you think the good character he got from Mr. Rutledge had any effect upon the sentence? It must have had some effect.

Did anyone else give him a good character? A man named Shannon, a farmer and grazier about Molinglo [Molongolo].

What was the previous character of Bradley? I do not know anything about it. I believe from what i could fathem that Bradley’s character had not been bad before.

What are his connections? He is connected with the bushrangers by marriage.

With the Clarkes, is he with the family of the Clarkes, I think one of the family of

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the Clarkes married his sister.

What is the character of Smith of Sinden? Commercially he is not believed to have a good character; I know nothing about him criminally.

Have you noticed in this town improper intimacy between the police and the relations of these bushrangers? I have noticed an improper familiarity between them and members of the police, not with the female section but with parties who are known bad characters, old Clarke, for instance, - I have seen policemen go and drink with him in public houses in Braidwood.

And with whom else? I have not noticed the others so much that are more respected, such as Mick Connell and Griffin, and others, because they were not suspected at that time; but Old Clarke was always considered the Jonathan Wild of the gang.

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What police have you seen drinking with him? I have seen a policeman named Welsh.

Who else? I could not be certain as to their names.

Have you seen Welsh drinking with him on more than one occasion? No I think not.

Where was this? At the Commercial Hotel.

Were you present at the trial of the Two Clarke girls, Annie Clark and her sister? Yes

Were you present whene they were discharged? Yes.

Did you see any of the police go up and shake hands with them? No, I did not. On one occasion, I think before she was discharged, when she was leaving the witness box, I saw a policeman, who is stated to have kissed her, go from the door halfway to the witness box and take hold of her arm and say "this way, Annie."

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Was this at ‘her trial? No, it was when se was a witness against Bradley.

Before her own trial? Yes.

Who was the constable that caught hold of her arm? It was Constable O’Reilly.

This is the man who is stated to have kissed her? Yes.

Is that common report? It is.

You did not hear it from anybody who actually saw it? No I have never given any credit to that rumour because I have never heard anything to authenticate it; but, having heard the rumour, this proceeding struck me as showing familiarity and strengthening the probability of that occurrence.

Do you know a man called Buckland in this town? I do.

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What sort of character does he bear? A shocking bad character.

Have proceedings ever been taken against him? No.

Has there been any posibility of doing so? I should have imagined some might have been taken.

What is he? A retired publican. I believe that before the government institute detective means there might have been more detective means used by the police, and as an instance of that. I may mention the holdings with which the bushrangers presumed upon the absence of any such means against them when they bought up the property they stole from Mr. Taylor and passed the police and hid it under Illamatong, close to the town, for the purpose of going to

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one of the parties in town.

Such as whom, besides Buckland? I have no knowledge of anyone also, I have no knowledge of him, but I know him to be a very bad character; but as to the others respected in town I have not known that they were bad characters.

Was it known that these things were to be placed on Jillamatong to be introduced into the town, until after it was done? It was not known until the foods were discovered.

How were they discovered. By the black trackers bringing the police onto them.

Then the police so far failed them? The police had nothing to do with it, it was the black trackers as far as I heard.

Are they not attached to the police? No, was one Mr Taylors black tracker, There

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were two I believe, one of then a police tracker; but the police, I believe, pooh poohed the idea of the food being there at all.

Do you know any other names of bushmen about Braidwood? I did know the name of Buckland, as being convinced in my own mind that he is a harbourer.

Do you know Farrell? I have no proper suspicion of him. I consider, just in my own mind, that they are harbourers, they may be or they may not, I could not well say whether they are or not. Farrell is a very well conducted man in the town, and keeps a good name. They are very much connected with them, and it is quite probable they are hanrbourers/

Colonel Richardson

You frequently attend in Court here, do you not? Yes

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And watch the cases ? Yes.

How long have you been in the habit of doing that? Five or six years.

Constantly? I may occasionally not be here.

It was your opinion that the Crown Prosecutor smothered all the evidence that was likely to bring to Hassall’s name in connection with Mullins’s case, as a guilty receiver? Yes

Was that the popular idea? It was. It was more fully instilled in the minds of the public from those who were present in Court and watched the nervous anxiety of the Crown Prosecutor and the conferences he held with Mr Hassall upon the Judge deciding upon the permits in conference to the objections he made.

You say Doyle applied for a search warrant, and it was refused? Doyle told me

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it was refused, but I believe Mr Bridge said he did not exactly refuse it, but advised him that there was no necessity for it.

Did he search Mr. DeMestres’ station? He went with Sergeant Duffy. They were away two or three days.

Was Mr. DeMestre aware the cattle were stolen? I do not know.

Did Mr. DeMestre make any promise to look for those cattle, or otherwise assist? I believe he did. These cattle taken by the police are the only cattle that have ever turned up except six or eight they admitted having since that.

Was it prior to Mullins’ lot, or subsequent, that the brand of some cattle was bought by Mr Hassall? Prior

How long before? It may have been six months, it was in the worst part of the drought when that lot were bought.

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Are you aware of Hassalls’ property in the hope of horses being respected by the bushrangers? I am.

Are you aware that on two occasions his men have been struck up with valuable horses and allowed to escape? I am. I am aware also, as I had it from the man himself, from one of his servants, the man who has charge of his station, that the bushrangers have passed in and through Mr Hassall’s station at Ballalaba.

Do they pass through there with his consent? With his servant’s consent, and this servant told me.

What is his name? Henry Dobbin. We were speaking of the bushrangers when he was paying an account he owed – this was last week – that the bushrangers

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passed in and through and they never interfered with Mr. Hassall and he never interfered with them. I did not put any questions to him because I knew very well all about that without.

It is likely Mr. Hassall knows it? My own opinion is that he does, and that it is part, of the man’s duty.

Is this Dobbin in any way related to Mr. Hassall? Not that I know of.

You have had opportunity of forming an opinion of the magistrates conduct on the Bench – are you of opinion that their decisions and independence of action are such as to command respect? The general action of the Bench I do not think would command respect. Of late it has not been so bad, because

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there have been better magistrates in attendance, but until twelve months back the Bench was held in very little respect on account of the anomalies of their decisions and the influences extended.

In reference to the granting of bail, have they been too easy, or has the amount of bail been too little in certain cases? I am not aware that until this last bushranging affair there has been anything wrong in the granting of bail.

Who are these magistrates that you allude to as better magistrates on the Bench? I consider the best magistrates on the Bench are Mr. Maddrell, Mr Bunn. Mr. Bennisin and Mr. Stewart.

You have not mentioned Mr. Sarmens’ name? No.

Is that an intentional omission on your part? It is.

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Has he not showed proper report to his Duties as a magistrate? I think he is very attentive

Will you say in what way he shows a want of - decision, we will say? I think he is very cloudy and unfitted for the position except for certain duties, if you could keep him for these duties he would be very convenient.

What is he chiefly useful for? He might be useful for granting a slaughtering license or signing a warrant for bringing up a person who had been guilty of some offence.

In fact, supposing you were placed in the position of a prisoner before him. you would not like him to be the only magistrate on

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the Bench? That depends. I would rather prefer it I think.

Would you be likely to get off easy in the other expense? I consider it would be more a matter of luck. You must understand I do no t think Mr Sarmen is at all a designing magistarte. I think he may do very very foolish things, but I do not think he does to by design

He is not what you call a competend magistrate? No. I think he is a greater incumbent to the usefulness of the Bench than one of the designing magistrates, because designing magistrates are made more powerful by his assistance.

You mention designing magistrates – can you give the names of any? I mean magistrates that will use

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the Bench for their purposes.

Such as whom? I do not like being harsh upon any individual, but I consider one magistrate has brought reproach upon the Bench more than any other, that is Mr Hassall.

Do you allude to any other besides him? I would not like to allude to any other, because I have not sufficient cause.

Mr. Leary: In the case of Perry, brought up for receiving stolen cattle, did Mr. Templeton, the Crown Prosecutor, exert himself to the utmost to attain a conviction? Perry was tried in Goulburn the second time, he did not obtain a conviction against Perry here; the jury disagreed.

Did he on that occasion exert himself to the utmost to obtain a conviction? Yes, he extended himself to a very great degree to obtain a conviction against Perry.

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But in Mullin’s case he did his utmost to shut out evidence as to any person being guilty of receiving the stolen property? Yes, he worked hard against the receiver in Perry’s case, and the thief was let go, and in Mullin’s case, he worked hard against the thief and the receiver was let go.

How did the thief escape in Perry’s case? He was made approver. The Judge at the time told him he had put his foot in it.

Was Bungy’s the only evidence? There was evidence that the cattle were stolen. Bungy admitted Was there sufficient evidence in your opinion to have convicted Bungy? the stealing, and the owner proved that they were stolen and found in the possession of Perry.

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Who admitted Bungy to turn approver? I could not tell.

In your opinion, if Bungy had been on his trial, was there ample evidence to convict him of the stealing, and also ample evidence to convict Perry as the receiver? Yes.

Therefore in your opinion justice was defeated as regards Bungy? Yes, And in comparisson with the other case that was smothered the evidence was very seriously strained as regarded Perry.

In Mullins’s case was there such an amount of evidence, in your opinion as could have convicted Mr. Hassall? I could not say what the evidence was; I only consider there was a sufficient amount of evidence against Mr. Hassall to warrant evidence being got up for the purpose.

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Are you aware whether at the preliminary proceedings before the Justices in Bungy’s case, he was defended by an advocate – when he was committed? Yes, he was defended.

By Whom? Mr. Scarvell. Do you know who paid the fee? I could not tell that, I should certainly say it was not Bungy.

Why? Because he has nothing.

Was there any conference between Mr. Hassall and the advocate during the trial of Bungy? Yes, they were continually together.

What was your impression as to Mr. Hassalls Connection with the affair? My impression of Mr. Hassall was that he wished to prevent Bungy from being put in Gaol.

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As to the evidence of value in Mullin’s prosecution was there more than one evidence given as to the value being over 18s/6d. there was the evidence of the owners of the cattle, the whole of them.

They proved that the cattle were some of them worth £4 or £5 a head? Yes, Some had given £6 a head.

Who else? Only these men.

Who gave evidence as to the value being only what Mr Hassall stated it to be? The only evidence Mr. Hassall had was as to this sale of Nichols’s cattle at a lower rate.

Did you see the cattle? I saw the cattle in the yard, those that were taken.

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What description of cattle were they? A very good description of milch cows.

Was the District in so very bad a state then that the cattle would be exceptionally low? The feed where these cattle were taken from was not so very poor as to depreciate cattle to that extent or anything like it.

So I might infer it was a very low price? Very low indeed.

Have you ever asked that a magistrate was asked whether he would grant a warrant for Mr. Hassall? I have.

Could you give us what information you have about it? I do not know anything about the circumstances, any more than I heard the magistrate himself say he would grant a warrant.

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What magistrate? Mr. Bunn

To whom did he give this reply? I did not hear his reply, he told me himself in private conversation he would grant a warrant.

What for? A warrant against Mr. Hassall for returning the cattle knowing them to be stolen.

Are you aware whether the police or anybody else applied for a warrant against Mr. Hassall? No.

Did Mr. Bunn allude to this case of Mullins? He did.

Are you in the habit of going about in the evening when there is any entertainment here? Sometimes.

Have you ever observed any of the police in a state

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of drunkenness at any entertainment.? No. I have never observed any great drunkedness on the part of the police.

At any time? Not at any time.

Have you seen any of the police drunk? I have seen Constable Feelan drunk.

Under what circumstances? In the evening, Saturday evening, I think.

What public house? David Richardson’s

Was this latley? I think it was a fortnight ago, it was shortly after this murder.

Did you hear him make any remark about Carrole and his party? I have not heard him make any severe remark. I heard him throw discredit upon them.

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After their death ? After their death.

Did he speak disrespectfully of them? He spoke disrespecfully not to say harshly.

What were the words? It was a matter I did not take particular notice of; it was not anything I considered out of the way or anything I could find fault with, it was merely jealous words that might have been spoken before the death of them at all.

Have you reason to believe jealousy existed on the part of the police force towards this party? I have very good reason.

Will you give us your grounds for suppressing these wds such jealousy? I was here during the whole of the Court business when Mr. Carroll conducted the cases

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independent of the police. I do not know of any circumstances that I could narrate but from their general conduct to each other during the Court business and before the public, their utter disregard of any courtesy towards each other.

The police towards Carroll’s party? The police towards Carroll’s party – and the manner in which Sergeant Duffy requested an investigation as to the inuendoes levelled against the police by Mr. Carroll, his warm manner and the outburst of his smothered feelings, all created an impression on my part that there was a very great jealousy.

Was there anything marked in the conduct of particular members of the force? I have no particular conduct further than that.

[Page 51]

Did the feeling seem to run through the whole force? It did. And I have heard that the police, nearly every one of them, were industriously gossiping and speaking against the effects of this party.

Could you give us the names of any respectable witnesses who could state facts – that they heard these policemen to say anything to support this statement? I could not bring to mind any of the parties just now. I have not heard it directly. I have only heard it from two perhaps that have had it from parties to whom it was directly spoken

What was the demeanour of Mr. Carroll towards the police? Mr. Carroll’s demeanour seemed, in my opinion,

[Page 52]

to show that he felt he was there necessarily upon his own resources – that he was to keep away from them.

Was his manner of a similar character to that of Sergeant Duffy? No. He was very quiet.

The tone of his voice and his manner altogether? The tone of his voice was very quiet indeed, he never rose his voice, nor was he the least agitated, and he had great occasion to be so, because the advocate for the prisoners, in his presence, threatened him and called him very severe names in very harsh terms. With all that he was very quiet indeed; and it was after the advocate’s speech that this occurred where there would have been some justification for his being somewhat excited.

[Page 53]

Was this the first prosecution by Carroll? No, I think it was the second.

What is your opinion of the conduct of Mr Superintendent Orridge iin this trial? My opinion of Superintendent Orridge is this, that I think he would not willingly commit any act that was dishonourable; I think he is a gentleman, but I think he is a man wanting in purpose and resolution and apt to be misguided.

Am I to infer then that he is an easy going man? Yes.

Do you think that he has greater confidence in his men than they deserve? I think he leaves them more to themselves than he should.

Do you think that is a matter of the utmost importance, in this district particularly, that

[Page 54]

a Superintendent should have first class Sergeants under him – men of self respect, who would command the confidence of their subordinates? I think if the police system is to be continued it will be necessary to make these sergeants as responsible men as the Chief Constables were in former times.

Are you of the opinion that the sergeaants generally are men of this class? From my knowlegde of the Sergeants here, I do not think there is anything I could find fault with in them.

Is Sergeant Duffy a man to give large powers to? I should not. If he was sergeant of a District like Moruya, for instance, I should think he was not the man for it; but being under Mr. Orridge I think he will do, not being in charge

[Page 55]

Do you think that Mr. Orridge is at all crippled or hampered from headquarters. I think so.

Is that a general impression? I do no tknow about the general impression, but that is my opinion. That is one phase of the disorganisation and want of useful ess of the police. As an instance of it, I will give what confirms me in my impression, that the orders from headquarters to inquire into the conduct of the police and to deal with the police are very anomalous, not consistent.

Will you give me the inconsistency or anomaly? This charge that Carroll made against Senior Constable Watson was, in my opinion, dealt with in the wrong manner in being referred to the Bench and an advocate allowed to plead.

[Page 56]

For Watson? For Watson. It was a very serious charge, and I think it was veryn inconsistent to deal with it ub that manner, and to deal with the other charges less serious, relating to the same thing, in the summary way they may have done afterwards with Senior Constable Thompson.

You think then the charges against Watson was of a graver character th an the charge against Thompson? Yes.

Are you aware that by the Police Regulation Act it is necessary to bring offenders before the Bench in certain cases? I am aware of that. I am finding fault now with the police system. In the one case, on the more serious charge, they bring him before the Magistrates and allow him to have an advocate

[Page 57]

and every facility for working through it, an in the other case it is instant dismissal with merely the evidence taken with closed doors, and the man is allowed no advocate, an opinion is given in Sydney and the man is simply dismised.

Do you know whether this man Thompson was dismissed in consequence of this evidence taken with closed doors – do you know in other words, whether the charge originated from evidence taken here by this Commission or from a charge proferred against him outside of this inquiry? I am not aware.

I presume you mean by closed doors that the Superintendent investigated it? Yes.

I presume you consider the Supereintendent should have very large powers? I do.

[Page 58]

That he should have very little to do with the head Office in Sydney? Very little.

That he should be a man of large discretion and great ability.

If then Mr Orridge gave evidence before this Commission that he has all these large powers that you say he might to possess, do you think, in the face of that, that Mr. Orridge’s conduct is culpable? I do. If he has the powers.

If he has the powers his conduct is very culpable? Very culpable.

I think you have stated that there is a general impression on the part of the public that the police are too familiar with these harbourers of bushrangers? Yes; I will give you an instance of that. A man named Michael Gallagher of Long Flat, who is supposed

[Page 59]

to be a harbourer of them, justified himself to me personally from giving any information to the police from the fact of this intimacy with them. This was before the rumour of a constable having his arm round Annie Clarke’s neck. He then told me there was one of the police after Annie Clark, and he was afraid to give them any information of the bushrangers, because he felt almost sure it would reach the Clarkes again, and he would be a marked man.

Are you of opinion that such an impression on the public mind would cause a want of confidence on the part of the public in the police force, and thereby injury be sustained? I think it would have

[Page 60]

great effect upon the contempt that is felt for the police by a great many people in this district.

Are you aware that there is a reluctance on the part of the general public to report omissions or commissions on the part of the police to the Superintendent. The general public will express an opinion without going to great efforts to substantiate it.

Can you give any reason why persons in respectable spheres here, such as magistrates and others, decline or omit to furnish the Superintendent with any reports of misconduct on the part of the police? I can only give the same reason that applies to all other harbourers, aiders, and abbetors of the bushrangers that they are more afraid of the bushrangers than they

[Page 61]

are of the law.

Who are? The harbourers.

I am asking can you give any reason why persons in respectable positions here, magistrates and others decline or omit to furnish the Superintendent with any reports of misconduct on the part of the police?

I can only give the I am not aware that the magistrates have any particular means of getting to know of misconduct on the part of the police.

Supposing that they do, and that it is a fact that they do not give this information to the authorities either magistrates or anybody else? I am not aware that magistrates have had any authentic complaints to lay before the Superintendent. I myself have never had

[Page 62]

anything that I consider it necessary to lay before Mr. Orridge.

In this case of Michael Gallagher’s I did not consider myself justified in telling Mr. Orridge, because in the first place, Gallagher would not have thanked me and would not have substantiated it if I had done so. And the same thing runs through the whole of these country Districts. there is a feeling that you are a specied of tattler and informer if you do anything to injure a mana in his position whatever it may be.

If the Commission have been informed, and it be true, that many members of the police force are very intimate with Annie and Maggie Clarke, that they are in the habit of shaking hands with them and treating them otherwise very familiarly and if they state, as a

[Page 63]

justification for such conduct that they are endeavouring to obtain information for police purposes, would you believe their statement, or what would be your impression of their conduct?

I should consider that they were acting in an obsecure manner and that from the knowledge they must have of the subtlety and cunning and ramifications of the league of which they individually try to get the better, they can never entertain such an idea at all.

I am to infer that you consider Miss Annie Clarke quite as sharp as, if not sharper than, the police? Yes.

Do you consider that, if the Superintendent informed this Commission that he did note object to the Members

[Page 64]

of the police force obtaining information from the Miss Clarkes and certain harbourers his conduct would be justifiable or that he would be exercising discrimination? I should think he was taking a very foolosh step.

Do you know anything of the Jingera country? I have only been along a portion of it.

Are you of the opinion that there were police stations located in the retreats or supposed retreats of the bushrangers, and the district at the same time patrolled by efficient men, that would be an improvement on the present mode? I do not agree with police stations at all in the country. I would suggest parties to go out upon an equal footing with themselves, to have not rendervous at all.

[Page 65]

To traverse the whole country? To traverse the whole country.

Do you not think it would require two or three thousand men to do that? No. I would have them partie’s without any headquarters. I consider that in a country like that, setting up police stations is like setting up a flag and allowing them to observe all your outgoings and incomings as they do.

You would have several parties of police constantly patrolling about these retreats? I would have them constantly partrolling so that they might be on the same footing as the bushrangers themselves – that there should be the same insecurity in the minds of the bushrangers

[Page 66]

as to when they would met the police, as there is in the minds of the police when they will meet the bushrangers.

The President: In what respect do you consider Mr Orridge culpable? Mr. Leary asked me if it should should, or if I should be aware, that Mr Orridge has these large powers that I considered he had not, whether I would consider him culpable, and I stated I would.

In what way?
What for? Inefficiency

Speaking of the words of the rising population, are you aware of the existence of public houses in the country Districts where dancing and improper conduct takes place? There are great complaints against it in some parts in Araluen.

[Page 67]

Would not that be remedied by restricting the granting of publicans’ licenses to persons of known respectability? I consider there is too great laxity in granting licenses altogether.

Do you not attribute the demoralization of the youth a great deal to their frequenting these low public houses and associating with bad characters? Yes, a great deal of it.

Have you observed any national element predominating in the police force? I have.

In what direction? In reference to Irishmen.

Irishmen predominate you think? There is a national element of clanship amongs the police themselves.

[Page 68]

Do you think it exists to a prejudicial extent? It cannot hamper impair the force much because they are principally Irishmen.

Are there not some natives? It may affect the organisation here in so far as a few efficient natives may be frustrated. I have heard summons, which of course I cannot substantiate or give particulars about, that there are one or two efficinet officers in the Ballalaba country who are the object of great jealousy amongst the remainder.

Are you aware whether there is an sufficient number of black trackers in the force? I think not. I think that is the greatest want.

Would not efficient native guides in some measure supply the place of black trackers? Not to the extent required. In any cases of pursuit the bushrangers have always eluded the police more through the nature of the country they

[Page 69]

have taken, and the impossiblity of the police following, their extraordinarily superior equipments, and the great fault has been that the police have left off the pursuit when they have lost sight of them, instead of tracking. I think, when they have eluded the police, the track should have been kept on, instead of returning home.

With regard to the present punishment for highway robbery under arms, do you think it is sufficiently severe as is necessary for putting down crime, if the sentence is carried out to the full extent of the law, and that if it was made any severer it would have the effect of preventing juries bringing in verdicts .

In this case of Bradley’s I was present and reported the whole case, and the jury brought in their verdict

[Page 70]

after a very careful and searching inquiry and consideration amongst themselves, and it was the opinion of many intelligent men who had heard the case, besides myself, that the case was very doubtful against him. It was a very balancing case. What I mean to say was that the endeavour to do justice and uphold the law, if the penalty had been so much severer in that case, the jury might not then have brought in the verdict they did.

Mr. Leary: If it had been a capital offence you think they would have acquitted the prisoner? I think so.

Mr. Fosbery: He has since admitted his guilt? Just so; but with the case against him, if I had been on the Jury, I would have acquitted him, if it had been a capital offence.

[Page 71]

The President: If it were the law of the land the possibility for the consequences would not rest with you it could be your duty to give your verdict according to the evidence? I would be carrying out the law in my own conscience, but my conscious would be unconsciously acted upon by merciful considerations.

A jury man has to give a verdict according to the evidence, but the manner in which he receives the evidence is materialy affected by the consequence – by the knowledge that if he makes a mistake it can never be remedied, if the law takes a man’s lifer in consequence of his verdict.

[Page 72]

Braidwood Commission #58

Wednesday 6th February, 1867

qPresent

Mr. Campbell (President)
Mr. Cloete
Mr. Leary
Mr. Fosbery
Col: Richardson

Senior Sergeant Francis Duffy called in and further examined.

The President: Do you remember the occasion on which the bodies of Special Constable Carroll and his party were exhumed? I do.

Did you send any men downn with the undertaker on that occasion? Yes, three mwn went out – Constable Walsh, Constable John Robson, and Constable Robert Geelan.

What instructions did they receive? The instructions Mr.Orridge gave me to

[Page 73]

convey to these men were that they were tto start the followinig morning at day light, the undertaker having left the night before about twelve o’clock,- that they were to go to Ballalaba station, feed their horses, and have breakfast, and get to Jinden as soon as the undertaker would get there – that they were to remain there as a protection for the men who had the contract for exhuming the bodies that they were not to perform any manual labour, but merely to go there to protect them, and to remain with them until they came back to Braidwood.

Had they any magisterial order with them to exhume the bodies? The police had

[Page 74]

not that I am aware of, but I understood that Webb had.

From whom? From Mr. Griffen I presume, and Mr. Rodd, but I am not aware, there was no order taken through me, or through any of the police that I am aware of.

When did the men return? Between seven and eight o’clock on the Wednesday evening, it was nearly dark.

Was it light enough to see them? Yes, there was perfect daylight.

Did they report themselves to you? I was at the stables when the three men came up, and I was anxious to see them, so we were looking out for the arrival of the bodies.

Did they make any report? I went up to the

[Page 75]

stables to see them and asked how they got on, they said it was a very heavy job – thet they had to stay out all the night in the rain.

Was that all they officially reported to you? They told me they had a great job with Webb, the undertaker, that he got drunk , and they had to put him in the cart, but he would not stay on, and they told the undertaker’s assistant, Bright, to take on the carts.

Did you report this to your superior officer? No, that had no connection with my duty.

You say these three policemen reported that they had had a great deal of difficulty and trouble in consequence of the

[Page 76]

undertaker getting drunk, did you not think it your duty to report such a transaction to your superior officer? As it was a matter entirely apart from the police department I did not think it was.

Is drunkeness apart from the police department? As it happened up there fifty miles away I did not think it necessary. In fact I am not quite clear whether they mentioned it to him me that night or not, or a day or two after. I know they mentioned it to him me afterwards.

Did you think mention it to your superior officer? I do not remember having done so.

In what state were the men when they returned? The police were sober, I did not see the other men until they drove up about eight o’clock.

[Page 77]

Mr. Wallace, the gaoler, asked me if I had any objection to admit them into the police yard, and I said certainly not.

Were these police sent for the purpose of escorting the bodies to their destination. Yes, down to Braidwood.

How do you account for their presenting reporting themselves at seven o’clock, and the bodies not being brought back in ‘till eight? I asked them where were the bodies and they said "we have left them outside the town at the foot of Jillamatong that is near to the town, just over the creek. I said, "Very well". I then came up here with the intention of going out and seeing the bodies myself

[Page 78]

and advising with my superiors as to our remaining out all night with them, but when I came up here I found the bodies were brought in, and they were taken at once into the yard.

Were these bodies very offensive? They were very offensive when in the yard.

Were they unpleasantly offensive outside the yard? They were. I heard the day afterwards that persons complained of the offensive smell.

Mr. Fosbery: You say that the police when they returned off this duty were sober? They were.

Were there any signs of drink in them? Not the slightest sign of any departure from perfect sobriety.

[Page 79]

Did they groom and bed their horses in an efficient manner? I do not remember being there when they attended to their horses.

You do not know whether they attended to them or not? Yes, they did I know.

Is Webb the undertaker usually a steady man? I cannot say he is an unsteady man, but I know the other man, Bright, is an habitual drunkard since ever I knew him in the district, five years.

Has he ever been in custody? He has.

What for? I think the last time was for being drunk and beating his wife, the police were called upon to go down

[Page 80]

and restrain his violence to his wife.

Is he a teetotaler now? I am not aware. He was not then.

Are you satisfied that you have not made a mistake between the two men, Bright and Webb? I have not. I know that Bright is an habitual drunkard, I cannot say Webb is, he is a tradesman in the town, and I never recollect his being accused of drunkedness.

What distance it is from where they police had breakfast in the morning to Mick Connell’s. About 10 miles.

Is there any house of entertainment between the two places? Not that I am aware of, there may

[Page 81]

may be some free selectors’ huts, but there were no licensed houses of entertainment until you get to Mick Connells’.

Mr. Cloete: Whenever any police parties return from the bush, do they report themselves immediately in their arrival to anybody? If I am at the station they usually do.

Do they always do so when you are on the? They generally do,

Do they always? They do, and I make it my business to inspect.

[Page 82]

them, I go out and ask them as to the purpose of their duty.

Do you inspect their arms? Yes, invariably when they are going out on important duty.

And when they return too? Yes.

Colonel Richardson: In your absence is there not someone answerable? Some times we have a Senior Constable here and sometimes we have not.

Is it not a rule in the police force that whoever may be the Senior at the Station takes charge and is answerable? Yes.

When these escorts come in, are they not inspected? The stables, where the men arrive with their horses after returning from duty, are in the

[Page 83]

Police Paddock, but the men are stationed in the town at quarters rented by the government. the only person I can rely upon is our Carter here to see these men when I am absent.

You are the only sergeant here? I am the only duty sergeant here, and the only one here for years.

Have you any specified times during the day when these men are seen – any roll call when they have all to be present? All the police here not on duty are very few, perhaps one or two or three.

Do they not appear at certain times? Of course they appear at

[Page 84]

stables at six o’clock in the morning, they are employed during the day, and at night I see them.

What is the last time you see them at night? Half past nine; I go round the barracks and see them and tell them to go to bed and put the lights out.

Do they mess together here? They do, now for the last three weeks, since more men came to the station, but prior to that they could not support a mess.

Supposing one of them is absent from mess, is he reported absent? If one of them were absent now during the day I might not have the oportunity of knowing it.

Would he not be reported to you by the

[Page 85]

Senior Constable? He would if the Senior Constable was at home, but he is most generally absent on duty.

Do you go round after the men are in bed? I do invariably between ten and twelve o’clock at night.

Do you know that they go out after bedtime? I heard some few months ago that one or two men stationed here went out once or twice without leave.

Is there any difficulty in a man that wants leave to stay out getting it? Not a bit. I have always given men leave, because they are very hard workd here.

[Page 86]

Mr. Leary: How long ago is it since Bright was incarceriated for drunkedness? I think the last time was about three or four months ago.
Are you aware whether he has been a teetotaler since that time? He may be, I do not myself personally know that he is, I think he has been more sober for the last three months.

Prior to three months ago, was he in the habit of getting drunk almost every week? I think he was. He is a reputed drunkard.

And Webb is not? No, he is not that I am aware of.

You think Webb is a decent man? I do. I believe Mr. Webb is a decent man, I never

[Page 87]

heard anything to the contrary nor knew it myself.

If Mr. Webb stated that, on the occasion of the police going out to escort the remains of Carroll and his party, they were drunk almost the whole time they were away, one of them riding against his leader and almost upsetting the cart – so drunk thay they did not know what they were doing or where they were going – what would you think of such a statement? I would not believe it, at any rate on the part of one or two of the men that went, for instance Constable Robson in particular, I would not believe it of him,

[Page 88]

because I considered him an exemplary man as far as temperance and sobriety are concerned.

When the police go out on duty I presume they go armed and with a certain amount of ammunition? Always, since Tommy Clarke escaped from gaol.

When they go out and when they return do you see what ammunition they have? I do, I see that they are always supplied with a sufficient quantity.

And that they have the same quantity on their return? I cannot say that, because the men are now supplied with a great deal of ammunition for their own protection. The men are

[Page 89]

desirious in these troubled times, to have a large quantity of ammunition.

Do you not take an account of what is given them? I do not, not of every round that the men have going away, because the men are anxious themselves to be well armed and to have plenty of ammunition for their own safety.

Would it not be possible for a corrupt policeman to give away ammunition to the harbourers of these bushrangers, when they know you are careless in taking an account of it? It is quite possible they might.

It is quite possible, I presume, that some

[Page 90]

of the police may have a sympathy with these harbourers, or be on too intimate terms with them? I am not aware of that. Each officer in charge of the surrounding stations from Braidwood is supplied with ammunition for his station.

[Page 91]

Uncat Mss
Set 508
Item 10

Q343

[Page 92]

Braidwood Commission
Tuesday 5th February 1867 (NOTE: This section out of order – Wednesday 6th Febrary comes before in the images)
Follows I.W. Orridge Esq (3rd examin)

Mr Thomas Atkinson called in and examined:

The President: Where do you reside? At Araluen
What are you? An engine owner?

Have you had any opportunity of judging the conduct of the police at Araluen? Not much. I have heard rumours about them, but I have never seen anything.
Have you ever come across the bushrangers? Yes, I have been stuck up by them.
By whom? The two Clarkes and Connell.
How long ago? At the time of the Sessions before last at Braidwood. They

[Page 93]

accused me of being on John Connell’s jury.

Did they do anything to you? They beat me about the head a good deal, I felt it for about two months afterwards.

What with? I do not know if it was a stick or a revolver, I had a white hat on and they knocked it over my eyes.

Did they search you? It was not exactly a search, they felt outside my pockets.

What was John Connell charged with? With being concerned in the Foxlow robbery.

What was done to him? He got ten years.

[Page 94]

Were you a witness to the case? No, I was called on the jury, and the prisoner objected to me.

And coming in you were maltreated? No, going home after the trial was cancelled.

How long after? The day after, at the termination of the Sessions.

Were you maltreated on the plea of having influenced the Jury? No, they thought I had been on the Jury.

Mr. Cloete: Was this reported to the police? Yes.
Where? At Jembaicumbene. Two of the police came back with me, and I showed them the place where I had been stuck up, and they said that would do. I do not know what they did afterwards.

[Page 95]

Colonel Richardson:
Do you know Sergeant Stafford, who is in charge at Araluen? Yes.

Have you ever seen him under the influence of liquor? No, never to my knowledge.

Has he been smart in turning out after the bushrangers? Yes, he is pretty smart in turning out, but I have heard it rumoured that he does not follow up his duties as he should do.

Do you know if he has made any remarks relative to the special constables? I never heard of it.

Do you think he is a man fir to be in charge

[Page 96]

of the Araluen District? I think it requires a man who is more energetic.

In what respect does he show his want of energy? It is only common rumour, I know nothing myself.

Mr. Leary: Are the public houses in Araluen well conducted? No.
Are they badly conducted? Yes, taking them on the whole.

Is there much drinking on Sundays? Yes, a great deal.

And billiard playing? I do not know that there has been so much lately, it used to be very bad.

Was it quite apparent on Sundays that the houses were open? Yes it is not so much so now as it used

[Page 97]

to be – not so much within the last two or three months. Some of the houses are open all Saturday night and Sunday morning.

The President: does this irregularity on Sunday take place within view of the police camp. No, I hardly think within view.

Within a very short distance? Yes.

Have you any statement to make? My name may have been mentioned in reference to a remark made by Mrs. Hassall here. I was talking to him, at Fraser’s store, about bushranging generally. He expressed his horror of it altogether, I said, "Six feet there will

[Page 98]

be a job here for you today. This was when Tom Connell was arrested, and I meant to say he would have to sit on the Bench to hear the cases against him. He said "No, the bushrangers have not interferred with me, and I think it is best for me not to interfere with them ". – I think the police have been left almost too long in Araluen, they get to intimate with the publicans.

So as to prejudice them as members of the force? Yes. I dare say there are twenty public houses and more, and if the police go into these houses every day or every other day they are sure to get a drirnk, and so they became too intimate with them.

Did you hear Mr. Hassall say he would

[Page 99]

not sit on the Bench? No, he did not say he would not, he only said the bushrangers had not hitherto interfered with him, and he thought it best not to interfer with them.

Are you aware whether he did sit? I am not. I do not think he did.

[Page 100]

Braidwood Commissison Saturday 2nd February 1867
Follows W. S. Edwards (NOTE: Section out of chronological order – follows 6th, Feb and 5th Feb)

Joseph Taylor, Esquire, J.P.

The President: Where do you reside? At Little Bombay.

What are you? A farmer and grazier.

Have you long resided in the district? I believe I am the oldest resident in the district, upwards of thirty four years.

What is your opinion of the general state of the district as regards crime – has it increased or decreased? I should think there is not more than one opinion about that, that it has very much increased.

Irrespective of bushranging? Irrespective of bushranging.

[Page 101]

To what cause do you attribute this great increase of crime in the district? I can scarcely answer that question. Since the goldfields were discovered in this district crime has increased with the increase of population. In former times the population was very scattered and very limited, and there was very little crime in those days, but since the opening of the goldfields crime has been continually on the increase.

During the last four or five years? During the last four or five years particularly.

Do you attend the Bench here regularly? I am sorry to say I do not, not of late. I do attend but not as regularly as I used to do. I used

[Page 102]

to attend every week, sometimes twice a week.

Have you observed the conduct of the magistrates in the discharge of their duties? No, I have not.

Has any instance come before you of any magistrate having neglected his duties, or shown any desire to evade them? I have noticed that, although perhaps the same charge could be laid to myself but has not been on the same grounds that I have neglected my bench duty, it has been on account of my circmstances not being what they were in consequence of severe losses I have sustained in this district, and I have had to attend more to my private affairs then formerly. It is not that I sympathize with

[Page 103]

these fellows as they have robbed me and plundered me, although, as I told the vagabonds when they came to my establishment, I think I ought to be the last man they should treat in that way, having known them all from children. They were not satisfied with taking necessaries, but they took all the trinkets from the people out of the house, and everything they could possibly take. I did all I could to prosecute these fellows and sent my black tracker out with the police. but At the same time I do not attend to Bench duties as much as I used to do – not from fear of these fellows at all, because I am not the least afraid of them, but I believe

[Page 104]

there are individuals who are afriad to come here to perform their duties as magistrates for fear they could have a horse stolen.

Could you name any person? I should decline to do that. The records of the Court could be a very good guide to satisfy all that is required without mentioning names.

Have you ever heard any magistrates excuse himself as unwilling to sit in any cases where he would be likely to make himself obnoxious to these bushrangers? No I have not,

Do you think the continuance of crime arises to any extent from deficiency on the part of the police? No, I do not think it is that. The police are almost powerless amongst the present class of people.

[Page 105]

I think they are perfectley powerless to suppress the crime that is being committed in this district.

Am I to infer that you think the system at present and opted for the suppression of crime is deficient? I think so. Whatever remarks I may may make, I believe the police do their duty as far as they are able, according to the system they have to work under, but I believe the system is radically wrong throughout, and that was my opinion when the Police Act was passed.

Can you suggest any improvement? I cannot, and I have been continually thinking about it, because my position is a very precarious one. I have and establishment you may

[Page 106]

say within half an hours’ ride of the town, and yet we are continually at these vagabonds mercy. As soon as it is getting sundown all my gates and every place are shut, and I have my men well armed. I have supplied what they call railroad whistles to each of my men to give the alarm if necessary, and my nephew never goes about but what he carries his revolver in his pocket. I have an invalided wife, and yet these vagabonds come and left us stuck up there for four hours in the open air in front of the store. Fortunately I had some men who were faithful to me, and who were not afriad to go and swear to one of these fellows and Mr. Sampson only gave him six years for it.

[Page 107]

What is your opinion of Mr. Superintendent Orridge? I believe he is a most efficient and obliging officer and that he does all that he can to suppress crime and to see that the police perform their duty.

In that case of Bradley’s that you refer to, you think the sentence was a very light one? It is ridiculed all over the district.

As ridiculously light? Yes.

Is it your opinion that the punishment for robbery under arms is insufficient? I think it is if that is the kind of sentence the District Court Judge will pass upon a man when he was proved to be with outlaws, under arms, and disguised

[Page 108]

and part of my property was found in his possession. He was identified by my servants as the man that was with these outlaws, there was no question about it, and the sentence was six years!

Is it your opinion that robbery under arms should be made a capital offence? It is, that is my belief certainly.

Even when unaccompanied by wounding? Yes.

Reverting to Superintendent Orridge – have you observed any want of independence of action that has prevented his being successful in the capture of these outlaws? No, I have not, I think Mr. Orridge has done all that he could.

[Page 109]

Do you think his position is surprisingly independent of the trammels of office? I think so. I do not see anything to interfer with the performance of his duty.

Are you aware whether he can engage men or dismiss them his men? I am not aware. I should say he ought to have such a power.

Do you know the Jingera country? Yes, I have been through backwards and forwards but not for some years.

What is the state of the population at present? I am not aware except from report. A great deal of the country is thickly timbered as well as being very broken.

You are aware of course, that a little while ago there

[Page 110]

was a party of detectives hes headed by Mr John Carroll? Yes.

Can you throw any light on that affair except what has been made public? No.

Do you know Smith of Jinden? Yes, very well.

What is his character? Very low, he bears a very indifferent character.

I suppose generally the character of the inhabitants of that district is low? Yes, I believe there is scarcely a decent or honest person up there.

Do you know anything of the origin of Clarke – his parents and early life and habits? For many years his father was a bad worthless character and known to be nothing but a common grog seller – to keep a common group shop,

[Page 111]

He was by trade a shoemaker, but he found grog selling more profitable, and by that and cattle stealing he reared his family.

Have any instances of insubordination or drunkeness or any misconduct, on the part of any members of the police force, come before your notice judicially or otherwise? Not one since the present system of police has been in force, and I suppose there are very few places in the district that they visit or resort to more than they do to mine.

Mr. Fosbery: On the occasion when your establishment at Little Bombay was robbed, do you consider that the police were active and diligent, and did they do what was necessary?

[Page 112]

I do not think they did what was neceaasry.

In what respect did they fail in their duty? I sent a message in from my establishment and he came in here, he says in twenty minutes. I will put it down at seven miles and I believe he could come in twenty five minutes, but before he could come back again with the police it was from three to four hours. If the police had come out in anything like ordinary time they would have met the bushrangers on my establishment, for they were there from half to three quarters of an hour after the man went away. They did not know he had left, because he came through my paddocks and the horse was hanging ready saddled at the store.

[Page 113]

The man was in Braidwood more than half and hour before these fellows left my establishment.

Who came out? Only two men were sent.

Was the superintendent in Braidwood at the time? I believe not.

Was Sergeant Duffy here? I believe he was.

And he did not come out? No.

Did you make any complaint about this? I made some remarks to Mr. Creagh, the subinspector about it, that I thought the system worked badly – that although my man got into Braidwood so soon there were no policemen out for three or four hours. When I challenged the two troopers they said, "Our

[Page 114]

instructions were to come out here and stop till tomorrow morning, Inspector Creagh has gone up to Ballalaba to look for more troopers there to come down with a black tracker in the morning." I told him I had a black tracker there, and several men offered to go with these troopers at once after the bushrangers, but they said no their instructions were to stop till morning and they could not disobey orders.

Did you know who they got their instructions from? Inspector Creagh they told me.

Then in your opinion the police arrangements on that occasison were thoroughly inefficient? Quite so. The bushrangers divided their spoil within two miles of my establishment, taking one part to Jerrabatgully.

[Page 115]

and the other to Jillamatong, and they were all night carousing there within that distance of my place.

You are a magistrate, did you not feel justified in ordering these troopers to take immediate steps to follow the bushrangers? No.

Are you not aware your powers extends to that? I believe they do, but as they had their instructions from their superior officer I did not wish to exercise that authority that I knew I did possess. If it had been other persons’ property most likely I should have given these instructions, but as it was my own property I waived that.

Surely after this gross neglect you felt it your

[Page 116]

duty to complain to the authorities, the Government or the superintedent? No, I did not complain officially I merely made a passing remark to Sub Inspector Creagh that I thought these men should have gone out at once after the men, he said rhey were the only two they had in the town and he did not consider two men sufficient to go after four.

Did he not consider the contingency that you had arms and men? He did not know that.

Do you consider Mr. Creagh suitable to be an officer of police. I never saw him but on that occasion.

What do you suppose was the object of sending the two men there at all? I cannnot understand,

[Page 117]

they were perfectly useless, they might as well as stopped in Braidwood.

You say you consider the whole system defective in point of the measures taken for the capture of these bushrangers? Quite.Can you suggest any means by which the government would arrive at that success more readily? It is a very difficult question to answer, with such characters as you have to deal with.

You consider that Mr Creagh’s discretion on that occasion was not such as to qualify steps command in other districts> He acted, I suppose to the best of his ability

[Page 118]

and judgement, but sending two men was not sufficient to cope with four armed men. He had no other men to send from Braidwood, but he immediately started off to get fresh men to meet these men.

Could he not have come himself with these two men and thus made up something like a party? We could have formed a party easily, enough men volunteered to go.

Do you think there is any screening by members, of the police force behind the authority of their superiors? No, I think the police do all that is in their power to do.

Do you think they are insufficeint in numbers? I cannot answwer that. I have never seen that.

[Page 119]

Are they inefficiently mounted or armed? they are inefficiently mounted to capture the present bushrangers.

Are they good bushmen to your knowledge? There are a few men recently taken with the police that are good riders and good bushmen.

Within what period? Within the last six months.

Do you think there are any, vulgarly speaking, "crawlers" in the police force? I do not know of any. The men seem very efficient. I have had them at my place frequently after Hall and his gang, and I have never had occasion to complain except in the case of the robbery of my establishment.

[Page 120]

That is the case that more particularly came under your notice? Yes.

Can you assign no reason for the failure on the part of the police to capture this gang? I cannot give any reason except that the bushrangers are too expert, they know the country better and are better mounted than the police.

Could the police readily get a better class of horses. I do not think they could. I do not know that the bushrangers have better horses, but the police horses are constantly at work and on the move while the bushrangers horses only work when they see the police, consequently they have the advantage in having their horses fresher.

[Page 121]

Do you think we could get a respectable class of young natives to join the police? I have asked and questioned a great number and none of them seem to be inclined to join.

Mr. Leary: With reference to that case of Bradley’s do you think fifteen years would have been a sufficient sentence? That was the sentence I presumed he would have received.

That would have met the justice of the case? Yes. There are many young men who would of and join Clarke and run the risk of a conviction – for it is a great deal of trouble to get a convicition .

Although I lost a large amount of my property it took a great deal of expenditure, what with leaving

[Page 122]

my establishment and servants, to bring home a conviction to this man. He employed an able solicitor on his behalf, Mr. Scarvell, but Mr. Orridge had no one engaged on behalf of the Crown. Mr. Scarvell made a very able defence, and it was only at a great deal of trouble and expense that a conviction was brought home to the fellow.

If a sentence of fifteen years could have been inflicted by the present law, the present law met the justice of that case? Yes.

I am right then in referring that the wrong committed was by the Judge? Yes, as far as the sentence was concerned.

With regard to capital punishment, are you aware

[Page 123]

or do you think that many juries would acquit for robbery under arms, if the sentence would be capital punishment where no shooting or wounding took place? I believe juries would acquit on the same grounds then as they do now – the same class of jury.

Do you not think that if the law were as it is now, merely transportation for or many years, the jury would not be more likely to find a verdict of guilty, where there was no reasonable doubt, than in a case where the only sentence must be hanging? I do.

I am therefore right in inferring that you think that if the Judges would do their duty the present law is ample to meet the case? Yes.

[Page 124]

The President: You are still of opinion that robbery under arms should be made a capital offence? I am, because this man, if there had been the least resistance on my establishment that night, would have committed murder immediately. If they had not arms they could not have done so.

Mr. Leary: Supposing the law were as you suggest, capital punishment for all robbery under arms, would not juries frequently acquit of the capital offence, where no shooting took place? I have no doubt they would in many cases.

Would not justice thereby be defeated? Yes, I think it would.

Would not juries more frequently find prisoners guilty under the present law, leaving it to the Discretion of the Judge to inflilct the sentence? Yes.

Therefore I think I am right in inferring that it

[Page 125]

it would be unwise to alter the law? But you must get different Judge to administer the law then.

Do you think it aadvisable for this Commission to report to the Government that the Judges are very lax or very unwise in their discretion in appointing sentences for highway robbery? So far as what has come under my notice it is so.

With regard to horses do you think the respectable portion of the public who possess horses in this district would refuse to against the police by a supply of horses when after bushrangers? I do not think any of the respectible part of the community would refuse it. As far as has come under my knowledge I believe they would all render assistance.

Do you think I think you have stated that the

[Page 126]

Jingera country is that in which the bushrangers have most harbourers? Yes, Jingera and Jerrabatgully.

Do you think police stationed in the retreats of these bushrangers, whether by camping or at police stations, would be a good plan to drive these bushrangers into the open country? No doubt it would. I believe the only way to punish these harbourers and assisters of the bushrangers is for the Government to build barracks up in that district, station policemen there, and tax the people of the neighbourhood for their support until bushranging was put down, for they are all harbourers more or less. That is the only way I think, for the Government seem to be perfectly powerless in apprehending or getting a conviction against these harbourers. The only case that has never come before the Court was brought forward by

[Page 127]

this unfortunate man Carroll, who went amongst them and discovered a little.

You think it quite predictable for several efficient bodies of police to watch the retreats of these bushrangers constantly? I do not think it is much use.

The President: Do you think it was a desirable step on the part of the Government to send these two special constables to act independently of the regular police? I do not think it is to be commended, I do not disprove of it.

Do you think the regular police authorities ought to have been made aware of the circumstance? I do think so.

Mr. Leary. Are you aware whether the police force evinced any jealousy in their conduct or language towards Carroll’s party? I never observed it, or heard of it exceept as the rumour of the district.

[Page 128]

Braidwood Commisssion (43)
Minutes 4th February 1967 (NOTE: Section out of order – follows 6th, Feb, 5th and Feb 2nd)

Present:
Mr. Campbell (President)
Mr Cloete. Mr Leary
Mr. Fosbery. Col Richardson

Mr William Breckenridge called in and examined: -

The President: Where do you reside? I am a storekeeper at Little River.

Have you any statement to make as regards the state of crime in the district of Braidwood, the conduct of the police, or any irregularities that have come before your observation? Only as to the way they work the police the dismissal of good police and keeping bad ones. The bushrangers have stuck me up twice or three times.

Can you mention any instances of their keeping

[Page 129]

bad police and dismissing good ones? The last affair between Gilder and Thompson.

What occurred? At the first sticking up they had at Little River it was a decided run with Gilder.

Did you see him run? No, I was not there. I could not swear to anything more than that the man was pointed out to me on the road with a policeman and a storekeeper. It has never been inquired into. Mr. Orridge never went out to look where Gilder was – at least not to my knowledge – not to inquire into the circumstances – where Gilder was when he ran.

What reason have you for supposing Gilder ran? I have known Gilder these last three or four years, and I have found

[Page 130]

out he is not fit for a policeman.

In what way does he exhibit unfit refs? He is too childish altogether. He might do for a town policeman but never to catch bushrangers.

Have you ever seen policemen commit irregularities by getting drunk or otherwise. No, I have not seen Gilder misbehave that way, I have heard a little but I never saw him.

Mr. Fosbery: As you aware for what offence Senior Constable Thompson was dismissed? Yes.

Will you state what it was? I believe it was for talking harshly of Mr Carroll and party.

Are you aware if he made use of any expressions that were more than harsh? I never heard him make use of anything except what I saw in Gilders’ report.

[Page 131]

Do you consider these expression were merely harsh? I consider they were not right for a policeman.

Would it be right for any person to make use of such blasphemous expressions? No.

Would you consider any man capable of expressing himself in that manner was fit to hold any office under the Government? Thompson is a curious, ignorant, man in that way. He has no sense in talking but I consider he is a fit man just now for the bushrangers – the best man we had out there.

Are you aware that there was an investigation into this alledged misconduct of Gilder? No, except that at the first attack Gilder was reported by Thompson for cowardice.

[Page 132]

Are you aware it was inquired into? A little by Mr Orridge.

You have never observed withThompson or Gilder the worse for liquor? Yes, I have seen Thompson the worse for liquor. Once or repeatedly? Only once.

Did you make any report of it? No.

[Page 133]

Transcribers note: Nothing on page

[Page 134]

Braidwood Commission (42
Saturday 2nd February 1867
Follows Mr Inspt Taylor J.P.

Alexander Cunningham, Esquire examined at his own request.

The President: Where do you reside? At Manar.

What is your occupation? Squatter and Landholder.
Are you a Magistrate of the territory? No.

Have you been long resident in the district? Only four months.

During that period have you had an opportunity of judging the state of crime in the District? I think so.

Have any particular cases come under your observation? Not personally. I had an opportunity of seeing these men who were murdered the other day, and I wish to state to you what they told me. Carroll showed

[Page 135]

me his appointment from the Government, and he told me he had not been helped or fostered in any way by the Magistrates in this part of the country.

By the Magistrates? Yes, by some. He did not specify the names, but he mentioned on leaving my house in the morning he went away, that if every person had given him as much help as I had done he would put a stop to his hanging in this part of the country in a month.

Have you any direct evidence to give as to the conduct of Carroll in the execution of his special [indecipherable] ? No, I had no opportunity of judging about that.
```

[Page 136]

If you have any statement to make relative to this special party, or to crime in the district, or to any object connected with crime, we shall be glad to hear it? All that I have to say is this, that Carroll came to my house nearly a month ago, and remained all night. He asked me as a matter of safety for himself and party not to give his name to any person about the place. I sent him to one of the outside huts and took provisions to him myself, and did not mention his name to any person about the place. He thanked me very much next morning and said what I have already stated, that if every person had helped him as I had done he would put a stop to bushranging in a month,

[Page 137]

but that he was met with difficulties on every side. He had gone to the houses of Magistrates, he told me, who would neither give him food or shelter.

Could you specity the names of those Magistrates? No.

Can you state anything of your own knowledge connected with crime in the district? I cannot do it, except heresay evidence, and I do not like to state that.

Mr Fosbery: Although it may be heresay evidence, perhaps you may be able to assist the Commission by making any statement with regard to what you have heard and observed in the district? I would like to do that, and that was just the reason of

[Page 138]

my asking to be examined here today. I think myself that the magistrates should be left altogether independent of the police.

Mr Leary: Are they not independent now? I think there ought to be one man appointed in this district to take charge of the police and be held responsible for the whole police peace of the district.

Mr. Fosbery: Is that not the case now? I do not think it is, for I believe some suggestion has been made that the Commission of the Peace should control the police officer in charge of the district. I heard so today

You consider the present arrangements, whereby the Superintendent of Police is held responsible, is the best? I believe one man ought

[Page 139]
to be appointed chief of the police, and ought to appoint his own men, and be held responsible for the preservation of the police.

Will you proceed, or does that compromise all your suggestions? If you like to ask any more questions I will tell you.

Do you believe the present officer in charge of the police is efficient? I believe the present officer well qualified to take charge of all the work under him; and if it was left to him, instead of the Bench, he would stop all this crime.

In what way have the Bench interferred in preventing him fulfilling his duties? That is what I cannot tell. I would give him plenty of men and make him altogether responsible

[Page 140]

to the Government and not to the Magistrates.

Are you not aware he is not responsible to the Magistrates – that he is independent of the Magistrates? I am not sure he is, I think a good and efficient officer ought to be able to protect the whole of the disturbed country, with good men appointed by himself, and without being responsible to the local Bench at all.

To what do you attribute the failure of the police to capture these bushrangers now at large? I think it arises partly from the fact of the officer now in charge having the control of appointing his own men, as he ought to have.

Colonel Richardson: You have stated that Carroll made a remark that if the he wished others had helped him as

[Page 141]

much as you had done – in what way did you help him? I gave him a comfortable bed and plenty to eat.

Carroll simply referred to the refreshment and shelter you afforded him? No I gave him some advice, I went up and talked to him for two hours about these bushrangers, and gave him all the help I could.

Mr Leary: Would that be the limit of the help you gave him, simply to give him a night’s lodging and food and some advice? I do not know much more that I could give him. I could not give him money.

Was that the only occasion you saw him? that was the only occasion I saw him.

[Page 142]

Have you any statement to make as to facts that might be of service? I cannot state facts, but I wish to make that suggestion that I make now, that the police should be put under the charge of one man and not under the charge of the Magistrates. There was a statement made to me this morning that they wished to put the police under charge of the Bench here, and I think if they do they are committing a great wrong.

Did you hear that the Commission were designing that? Yes. It has been said in the Bradiwood paper this morning.

You said somebody infomred you? Yes, I said so. I think the officers

[Page 143]

of police ought to have at least a hundred men appointed by himself, that he should name the area on which these men are to be placed, and that the expense of these men and horses should be levied on the present residents in that country that he names.

[Page 144]

Transcribers note: Nothing on page.

[Page 145]

Transcribers Note: These Minutes are out of chronological order

Minutes of Evidence taken before The Commission of Enquiry into the State of Crime in the Braidwood District.

Friday 25th January 1867

Present

Mr Campbell (President)
Mr Cloete
Mr Fosbery
Mr Leary
Col. Richardson

The Honourable Hugh Wallace M.L.C. called in and examined

The President: Where do you reside? At Ballalaba.

What is your occupation? Settler and farmer.

Have you a large number of servants employed? In this district I have about twelve employed altogether.

[Page 146]

How long have you known the district? Twenty six years.

Has your knowledge been confined to any particular locality or does it extend over the whole district? It extends over the locality nearly the whole district but I am best acquainted with the Ballalaba district.

Can you tell us the state of the district as regards crime – whether it has increased or decreased? It has increased I should say decidely.

Have any particular cases of crime come under your observation? Horse stealing has been very prevalent for one thingm and these stickings-up and robberies in the neighbourhood.

Can you mention any particular cases that have come under your observation? No, I have heard of stickings up, but I have never seen them.

[Page 147]

What bushrangers or persons connected with them have changed at this Court? A great many of them – the Clarkes, The Connells, and others.

No cases have come under your special observation. No, except what have been before the Bench.

Are you acquainted with many of the Magistrates of this district? Yes.

Are you aware whether they have discharged their functions satisfactorily? I should say so, I do not know that they have done otherwise. I am not very regular in my own attendance, because I am a great deal out of the district, having stations elsewhere, and my residence is sixteen miles from Braidwood. I always find the Magistrates very anxious to do their duty.

Has any Magistrate to your knowledge shown any reluctance ot omission, by word

[Page 148]

or deed, in aiding the police against the bushrangers? I must say I have heard one Magistrate express himself to the effect that he was not afraid of them taking his horses, and he would make a point of never sitting in any case in which they were concerned.

What is his name? That I should not like to mention.

To whom do you refer when you say "they"? to the bushrangers – these horse stealers and people out in the bush – Clarke’s gang and the Connells.

You refer to the gang which has been out since Clarke escaped from Gaol? Yes, and previously to that; he has several times been up for horse stealing before and always got out of it.

[Page 149]

Do you know the names of the gang? Thomas Clarke, the outlaw; his brother John Clarke, Pat Connell who has just been taken and his brother John who has got ten years, he was considered one of the gang, although I do not think he was ever in the bush regularly with them.

Was there not another bushranger named Fletcher shot at the Gulph? Yes. I did not know him personally.

Was he one of the gang? He was one of the gang too. I have been told he was a stockman of Mr. Smith’s at Jinden.

Where these murders were committed? Yes. the man Scott who is with them now I do not know personally, though very likely I know him by sight, for he has been about the neighbourhood for a very long time.

I can easily understand your reluctance in giving the name of the Magistrate you just now referred, but considering

[Page 150]

the peculiar character of this inquiry, your standing in the district, and your known him to suppress crime, I hope you will feel it your duty to mention it? I am not the only one he has said it to, because he has stated it publicy. It was Mr Rowland Hassall. At the same time I must say he said it more as a sort of boast than with any special meaning.

You cannot speak

Where does Mr Hassall reside? At Durham Hall, Jembaicumbene. At the same time I do not think that has increased crime in any way.

Has Mr Hassall every had any of his horses stolen by bushrangers? Not that I am aware of.

I suppose the Magistrates have? Yes. I have had plenty of mine taken. when Pat Connell was shot the gang had one of my horses taken with them.

Has Mr Hassall’s property been in any way injured by

[Page 151]

the bushrangers? I am not aware.

Could you mention the names of any other Magistrates who have not had their horses taken? Are there any horse breeders in the district who are Magistrates? I do not know of any; there may be others. Mr. Taylor has been robbed, but I do not know whether his horses have been taken. I think Mr. Maddrell has had horses taken, and I know Mr Stewart has had.

Mr Hassall is the only one you think of ho has not suffered? Yes, but he may have suffered that I am not aware of.

Are you aware that bushrangers have at any time received food shelter or any other assistance whatsoever directly or indirectly at the stations of any Magistrates in the district? I am not aware.

Have you heard any Magistrate ever use an expressions that could lead to the belief that they have sought to "stand well
" with the bushrangers? I never heard any person use such an

[Page 152]

expression except the one I allude to – I mean what Mr Hassall said.

He is the only magistrate you have heard made use of such an expression? Yes.

Did Mr Hassall make use of this expression more than once? I think he has in coversation. The thing has been generally talked of in the district. I recollect his speaking to me about it, but whether more than once I cannnot say.

Are you aware whether any magistrates have at any time had knowledge of the movements of the bushrangers without reporting the same to the police? I have no knowledge of it myself, but there was a report of Tommy Clarke going to give himself up to Mr Hassall at one time, but Mr Hassall told him there was only one charge against him and recommended him not to give himself up till Mr.

[Page 153]

Scarwell, the Solicitor, who was then absent, came home. That was the report. This was before Clarke was outlawed.

Then you are not aware of any Magistrates having knowledge of the movements of the Police bushrangers and not immediately reporting ten to the police? No.

Is Mr Scarwell usually retained when any of these bushrangers are brought up? Latterly he has been. There is only one Solicitor here now, but formerly Mr. Fell used to be their standing counsel.

Do you know whether Clarke at any time actually surrendered himself to Mr Hassall? He and Pat Connell surrendered to Mr Hassall some considerable time ago. There were warrants out for them, but the Araluen races were coming on, and they being great horse racers were very anxious to attend them, they therefore surrendered themselves to Mr. Hassall who brought them up and gave them bail, and that enabled them to go to the races. They afterwards surrendered

[Page 154]

to their bail, but got out of the charge, whatever it was.

What were the warrants for? Horse stealing, cattle stealing, or something of the kind; I really forgot the particular charge.

Was this the time Clarke was committed to goal and escaped? No, it was long before that. the time h escaped he was committed for sticking up a Chinaman under arms, and also for having stolen property in his possession. I cannot recollect whether there were any other charges against him then.

How did he fall into custody on that occasion? I do not recollect.

Did Mr. Hassall sit upon the bench when they were tried? I do not recollect.

Have magistrates properties, in any instance, suffered from the depredations of the bushrangers? Yes, by horse stealing and so on and Mr Taylor’s stores have been robbed.

Is Mr. Taylor a magistrate? Yes, his stores were robbed by

[Page 155]

Clarke’s gang, and some of them in fact have since been convicted.

Have any other magistrates residences been attacked, barns burnt down, stores robbed or anything of that kind? I am not aware. I had a hut burned down, and I always blamed the gang for it, but it is only supposition.

What magistrates properties have been wholly exempt from depredation? I do not know; I think I have heard of them all losing more or less.

Do you know or have you heard of anything connected with crime in this district affecting the repatation of any magistrate in his official capacity? No, never when acting as a magistrate.

Has any magistrate in your opinion shown a leaning towards the bushrangers or their harbourers in his judicial capacity on the Bench? No, I do not think so; any that have sat on the Bench when I have been there have shown

[Page 156]

no leaning.

What is the usual practice of this Bench regards bail when these offenders are brought before them? For my own part I have always, when the charge has been robbery under arms refused to allow bail.

Have you known any instances where bail has been allowed where in your opinion it has been undesirable? On the late occasion when Michael Connell and the two Griffins were committed I would not have granted it. It was clearly proved that Connell had supplied them with ammunition, caps, food, and spirits. Bail was granted but I would not in that case have consented to it.

Do you know the magistrates who acted on that occasion? No.

Do you know the amount of bail? I do not I was up in Maneros at the time.

What knowledge have you of the working of the police force in this district, and of the members of the force individually? There

[Page 157]

is a police station at Ballalaba close to my place, and I see that the men are very active and energetic, and I think they work very hard; I have known them to be out very late at night and not in their barracks till ten o’clock at night. As far as my observation goes they are very anxious and very attentive.

Can you state any instances of inefficiency on the part of the members of the force? I cannot. They have had very great difficulties to contend with from the nature of the country and the knowledge these bushrangers have of it and the harbourers they get.

Have you heard of any members of the Police force being on terms of intimacy with the bushrangers or their friends? No, none except the one reported in the newspapers the other day, where the man was acquitted for it.
where was that? There was a constable named Watson brought before the Bench for

[Page 158]

having some conversation with a prisoner whom he was bringing up from Nelligen, but the Bench, I believe, dismissed the case after taking evidence. that I have only from the newspaper.

Are you aware that some short time ago a party of special constables were sent out and were recently murdered at Jingera. From report I am, I did not see them, I was not in the District.

What is your knowledge of the conduct of the police force towards this special party? I have no knowledge of it at all, I was away the whole time they were here at Maneroo and in Sydney.

Have you heard any members ofs the police force speaking in terms if disparasment of these special constables? No.

Do you know any particulars respecting the murder of John Carroll and party? No, only from the newspapers.

[Page 159]

You canot throw any further light on the subject. No.

To what causes do you attribute the failure of the police in capturing the outlaw Clarke? I think it arises from the harbouring there is in the whole of a large tract of country more or less connected with them by marriage or other relationship and from the inaccessible mountains and gullies; and I should say also from their superiority as horsemen and the better quality of their horses, and their knowledge of the country.

Do you know what steps have been taken by the police for the capture of Clarke and his gang? Nothing further than that there are a great number of after them.

what is the opinion of the conduct of the Superintendent of Police in this district? I should think he is a most efficient and anxious officer, and I have had a good deal

[Page 160]

of opportunity if seeing him both in Braidwood and when visiting his stations. I have known him frequently to be out with his men, and I have often thought he had plenty to do in his office without heading these parties. I think him both efficient and active.

Has he in any instance to your knowlege shown himself unready, unwilling or incapable in the performance of his duty? Quite the reverse. I have always found him ready and active, anxious for information and acting upon it alone.

Are many of his habits such as to unfit him for the position he holds? Decidely not.

What is your opinion of the efficiency or otherwise of the present system of police? I do not see that a better could be devised, I have always as a magistrate found them ready to co-operate with me in any way.

[Page 161]

Could you point out any defect or suggest any imporvements in the system? I could not. I think that if this gang was once taken this district would be quieter. You may say that there are only three that are causing all of this.

What is the nature and the extent of the country usually known as Jingera? "Jingera" has altered a great deal latterly, there used to be two districts, one called Jerrabatgully and another over the mountains called Jingera; but now they seem to consider both districts as Jingera. (Map referred to and district known as Jingera pointed out).

What is the nature and extent of the population ini the Jingera district? there are a few Squatters and a great many free selectors and small settlers, but I have not idea of the number of the population.

Is the population of Jingera generally supposed to be favourable to the bushrangers? I think they are, they are generally looked upon as harbourers of bushrangers.

Are you aware if the bushrangers have received actual assistance

[Page 162]

by shelter, food, ammunition or information being given to them? I am not personally aware of it, it has been reported,

Do you know what locality these bushrangers frequent for shelter? All through the Jingera country, You may say from Araluen, they have now made passes through the mountains nearly from Araluen.

Do you know any particular localities it is reported that they are harboured about Jingera and about Stony Creek, where this man Connell lives, but I do not know that they are harboured in any one locality more than another.

Nor of any particular settlers favouring them more than any others? There was a man whose run was cancelled, but by the influence of some member of Parliament he got it back again. I allude to Simon Cory of Jingera. He was always loooked upon as a great harbourer and was committed here and convicted for stealing some pigs. In the meantime the government cancelled his squatting license on account of his harbouring the bushrangers, but he had interest enough to get it returned to him.

Who was the person who interested himself to get the license returned?

[Page 163]

I think it was Thomas Rutledge who got it done through Mr DeSalis.

Is Mr Rutledge a magistrate? Yes.

Of this Bench? No.

What is the name of Cory’s run? It is called Jingera I think, it is in the Jingera country. I do not recollect any particular name it has.

What part did Mr Rutledge take in the matter. Cory was an old servant of Mr Rutledge’s and I know Mr Rutledge did not believe he was so bad as he was thought to be by others, although I told him repeatedly what was his character. I used to chaff him about the good character he had given to Cory, and he and I often had arguments about it. Mr. Rutledge came and gave the man a good character at his trial, but I must say at the same time, that I believe Mr Rutledge was perfectly conscientious in doing so.

Is Cory now under sentence? No, he was under sentence, but he has done his time, I think he only got twelve months.

Did Mr Rutledge sit on the Bench? No, it was from this Bench he was committed.

[Page 164]

But Mr Rutledge came over to give him a character? Yes, at the District Court.

Has Mr Rutledge ever been attacked by the bushrangers? I do not know. His neighbours have. He has a very large establishment and they could not attack it very easily.

His neighbours have, but he has not? Yes. Foxlow, for instance.

They have never attacked Mr Rutledge or taken his horses? No, but the reason for that is that he has a very large establishment, and they are very great cowards and will not attack in such cases.

Is it known to you that the gang of bushrangers have relatives or connections residing in the district? Yes, they are all connected.

Relatives to this character that Mr Rutledge gave to Cory would you be good enough to state the conversation you had with Mr Rutledge on the subject? As I have said I recollect chuffing Rutledge about it as we were coming over together because I considered Cory one of the worst in the district; Rutledge said he was an old servant of his and he had

[Page 165]

always found him honest.

What was Cory’s general character? His general character was very bad, but Mr Rutledge could not have thought so, for I am perfectly satisfied he would not have given any man a character if he did not believe him deserving of it.

You mentioned just now that the bushrangers had relatives or connections in the distrixct – what connections have they? Clarke’s mother resides still in the district and his sisters also, his father was there until he was taken up for murder and died in gaol.

Do you know the origin and occupations of these Clarkes? Clarkes’ father was a shoemaker and an assigned servant to Major Elrington’s, and he afterwards became a tenant of mine at Ballalaba.

Do you know his sons? I have known the two Clarkes since they were children.

Can they read and write? I think not.

They have been badly brought up? They have been brought up mostly as these native youths are brought up – doing nothing but riding after horses and cattle; as soon as they can crawl they get up on a horse and think of nothing else.

[Page 166]

What is the general character of the residents in the district frequented by the bushrangers? they are nearly all free selectors and small settlers; there are no large properties up there.

Are there many children gropwing up among them? I have not been up there, but they have all large families I think.

You are not aware whether they have any means of education or religious instruction? Nothing of the kind, except a priest visiting them occasionally, that is the only advantage they have; I did not know of any school master up there at all.

Can you give any particulars as to the former life, habits and associates of the outlaw Thomas Clarke? He has always been knocking about the country after cattle and horses. I have occasionally employed him at muster.

He had no regular fixed occupation? He had for a time after he married, a team of bullocks which he used to work a little; then he took to horse racing and had some race-horses.

His career throughout has been a bad, irregular one? Yes. the first time he was brought up was for stealing a filly of my own.

[Page 167]

To whom is he married. To the daughter of an old man named Hart since dead who resided at Jerrabatgully.

What was Hart? He was a man of some little property up there, a very industrious man, he had made some money and brought a property up there.

Was he suspected of harbouring the bushrangers? No, I think not, he is dead now, and I think his two sons are just as careful as he was himself.

Could you give us the names of parties suspected of harbouring? There are a great many of the Connells’ own connections up there and it is generally thought they harbour them. Connells’ mother and brothers are there, and the sisters have married there. They are all of the same kidney, and as they must be harboured somewhere I suppose these are the most likely ones.

Mr Fosbery: I wish to ask if "in your opinion" crime generally has increased in the district during the past few years, or only the crime committed by this gang and their associates? I do not think it has increased, I am sure our population is much larger, and of course there must

[Page 168]

actually be a greater amount of time, but I do not think it has increased otherwise.

In your opinion, are the police, as at present constituted, efficient to preserve the district free from crime, if it were not for the exceptional circumstances of this gang being now out? I think so and I think the knowledge they have now got of the country, in pursiit of this gang, will give them more facilties for putting down any other crime that may spring up.

Considering this increase of crime and population and the necessity for placing police in new country, do you consider they were eligible men to undertake the duties of police officers? As far as they have come under my observation I think they were.

You stated when alluding to Mr Rutledge of Queanbeyan, that the bushrangers were probably afraid to attack his establishment owing to the large number of men about it – are you aware that he has any horses?

[Page 169]

Are you aware that he has ever lost any? I do not recollect of his having lost any.

Referring again to your reply about Mr Rowland Hassall would you be kind enough to state to the Commission what you know of Mr Hassall’s present occupation and antecedents? He has a large establishment and large property, he is a large dealer in cattle, and both breeds and buys. He has a large property at Araluen, where there is a large gold field on his private property.

To your knowledge was he at any time engaged in any business transactions with the outlaw Thomas Clarke, or an associate of his? Not that I am aware of.

Has Clarke ever been in his employ? I think not, he may have been casually, as he has been employed by me, as assistant to muster but I do not recollect Clarke’s being in Mr Hassall’s regular employment.

Has he been engaged in these transactions with cattle, to which you refer, with Mr Hassall? Not that I am aware of.

Referring to Simon Corey of the Jingera run, in your opinion was that man notorious

[Page 170]

as a harbourer of bushrangers in the district? From reports he was. Pat Connell resided, as a sort of stockman, with him and it was always reputed that he was a harbourer. The place used to be watched by the police.

Have any of these criminals, Clarke and his gang, in your opinion been induced to a career of crime from want or inabaility of earn a honest livelihood? None of them. They could all have lived as honest a life as you do.

Are they ignorant men? They are uneducated men, but very shrewd fellows.

Are any of the connections of the gang, or members of the gang, professed of any means? None of them that I am aware of, except Michael Connell, who was considered a man of means.

Was old Clarke professed of any property? His means must have been gone long ago. At one time I bought about £ 300 worth of cattle from him, he used to run his cattle on my run, and I would not let him do it any longer, and at last I bought

[Page 171]

them from him.

Had Thomas Clarke or any of the gang cattle of their own? A portion of these old Clarke told me belonged to Tommy, he said he was to give him half the money to buy a team of bullocks.

Mr. Cloete: You say you have heard of all the magistrates in the Braidwood district suffering at the hands of these bushrangers, do you except Mr Hassall? I never heard of him suffering. I know Mr Taylor, Mr Stewart, and Mr Maddrell have suffered.

You say the police force has been very efficient – do you think it has been sufficient? I think not for the present emergency, under the circumstances of these 6 men being so long out it requires something smarter than ordinary force to take them.

More than they have had? Yes,

Would it not be possible to form police stations in the Jingera mountains, nearer to the harbourers of these people? They had one at Wild Cattle Flat, but I think it would have been better higher up more towards Kellys Coreys’ place.

[Page 172]

Have any other stations been formed in these mountains? I am not aware. There has been one at Foxlow since the robberies there.

Had stations been formed in the Jingera mountains would they have been of service? I think they would, the one at Wild Cattle Flat was of service.

Are the police withdrawn from there? Yes, to Foxlow, the police there and at Micalago work together. Formerly there was only the known gap through the mountains, now they have passes everywhere.

You say that if the present gang were taken crime would cease – would not their connections and associates take their place? Some of them might.

Have not the gaps caused by the deaths of Fletcher and Pat Connell, and the apprehension of Tom and John Connell been filled up? There is only one man named Scott that I heard of with any certainty as having joined them.

[Page 173]

To what class do the harbourers of these bushrangers principally belong? Cory is a squatter, the others are small settlers, you cannot call some of the, free settlers because even before free selection a number of them had bought forty or fifty acres.

Have you ever heard Mr. Rutledge express himself in any way concerning these bushrangers? No.

To what religioius denomination do the Clarke’s and Connells belong? Johnny Clarke was a Protestant, the rest are all Catholics, but I believe he became a Catholic afterwards.

Do you know to whom Connell’s sisters are married? His eldest sister is married to Thomas Barry who has a farm there, I think he was there before free selection, but I believe he has added to his farm since, there is another married to Thomas Farrell a carpenter in Braidwood, another, the mother of the Clarkes, was married to the late John Clarke, and there is another married to a man named Monagham, a free selector on Oranmier Creek at the junction of the Shoalhaven.

Close to the Jingera Mountains? Yes.

[Page 174]

Col. Richardson: Did Mr. Rutledge know that Corey was a reputed harbourer prior to his interesting himself iin getting back his run? I think he must have known it by repute, but I do believe he did it with the best of motives, the man had been an old servant of his and had a large family, and he did not believe he was so bad as he was called.

Mr. Leary: Would you be good enough to state a little more elaborately the manner and several circumstances attending the conversation between yourself and Mr Hassall? I really cannot state more than I have done,

Could you say who were present at the time? No, I could not, the thing has been so frequently confused or talked of.

Was this said in a serious tone? Yes, quite a serious tone.

Are you aware of have you ever heard that old Hassall or any other magistrate, has provided the bushrangers with any food, or that any of their servants have done so? I never heard.

How long ago was this conversation? It must be twelve

[Page 175]

months ago or more, two years ago perhaps, it was before the outlawry of Clarke.

You have stated that the police in your immediate neighbourhood are efficient – were there any police stations there previous to the present police act? It is only a temporary police station, there has only been a police station there since the bushrangers were out to work with the other stations.

What was your opinion of the police force that were previous to the new Police Act? The old mounted police.

Yes? I thought them very efficient at the time. When the alteration was made I did not think the present suggestion would work as well as it did – taking away the control from the Benches – but from exerience of it I think it has worked quite as well.

Do you think it has worked any better? Upon the whole I think it has worked better.

Are there not many more men now than under the old system? There are more mounted men a great deal, but they acquire a great many more, there are goldfields in the district since; before the present force was established there were no gold

[Page 176]

fields.

I think you stated what were the occupation’s of Clarke’s gang, previous to their going into the bush? Yes, stockman and so on.

Not free selectors? No, before free selection they had all purchased a little land, about forty acres each perhaps, and since free selection they have added to it.

This Jingera country is of course a very wild district? Yes.

Are you of opinion that there was want of foresight on the part of the Inspector General of Police in not placing man before hand in this Jingera country? No, I do not think it. There has been a station at Wild Cattle Flat since the crime of horse stealing became so prevalent.

That is within the last year or two? Within the last five years.

In your opinion if police stations had been distributed in other places might crime have been suppressed? I think it might have been kept down.

Do you think now there might be more police stations distributed through the country? I think so. The distances are too wide for working with each other.

[Page 177]

Perhaps you would suggest some localties? If there was one somewhere in Jingera about Corey’s place and another about Jinden I think they would be useful. The bushrangers They can come our from Araluen by five or six different roads and go over to the Jingera country by Jinden, or they can come down from Moruya that way. I think about Jinden would be a very good place for a station, and another in Jingera about Corey’s. They have one now at Foxlow. The bushrangers terribly victimised Hosking’s station.

Are ther many squatters in the Jingera country? No, I think Corey and McGuigan are the only ones that hold licenses as squatters, Smith of Jinden is a squatter, but the license is in his mother-in-law’s name, Mrs Campbell.

Are you aware whether the general police have expressed any opinion displaying jealousy against detectives generally, not the particular detectives who were murdered? No, I have not. We have had no detectives here except Carroll and his party and found men who came here some time ago the same as Carroll and his men came up; they were unknown to the police, and

[Page 178]

they very near had an encounter with them, they took them for bushrangers.

With regard to Mr. Rutledge and Cory you did not to my mind sufficiently explain whether the conversation or conversations took place between you and Mr Rutledge about the lead reputation of Cory, previous or subsequent to the character being given? It was after he had given his character.

You say that it was generally known that this man was of bad repute? It was generally considered he was a harbourer. Mr Rutledge explained to me that he had been an old servant of his and that he had always found him honest a very respectable man – that he has taken his wool to Sydney and bought the supplies up carefully and correctly.

What character did Mr Rutledge give this man? He gave him a very good character, he stated dthat he always considered him an honest respectable man.

Were you presiding on the Bench? No, it was before the quarter sessions.

[Page 179]

This character was given when I presume this man Cory had a was in very bad repute generally? Generally he had a very bad reputation.

How long before was this man deemed a man of bad reputation? For a long time, it was always considered a place for these parties.

Did you express your surprise to Mr Rutledge that any person could be ignorant of his bad reputation? No.

No doubt you felt surprise? I felt surprise, but I was certain that Mr Rutledge did not consider him deserving of the bad character he had.

What was the reason he had a bad reputation? He had always about him a sort of bad boys – these Connells and others, Pat Connell was always living there, and the boy that is out of the country now, who has been convicted two or three times, was always there as a stockman or assistant.

How long after this pig stealing case was it that the restoration of Cory’s license run took place? I think it must have been immediately

[Page 180]

run came out, I was surprised to h ear he had got it.

so that if Mr Rutledge was ignorant, at the time of the pig stealing case, of the bad reputation ot Cory, he was not so at the time he interested himself to get his run restored? I am not aware that it was Mr Rutledge who did so, I presume it was Mr rutledge from the circumstances of Mr DeSalis asking if I had seen Mr rutledge and speaking some about it.

Presuming Mr Rutledge used his influence for the restoration of this run he of course could noto be unaware of the bad reputation of this man Cory? He perhaps believed he did not deserve it.

Have you heard it reported that at some of the squatters’ stations this gang have received shelter and food? Never. There are only three squatters you may say in the Jingera District.

I did not mean the Jingera District, but the whole of the Braidwood District? They are not squatters, the properties are freehold.

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Or at any of the magistrates stations? I may say it was said Mr Hassall told Tommy Clarke to go in and get his breakfast the time he came to give himself up, before he was outlawed.

Do the magistrates in this district usually attend the Court days – the whole of them? Not the whole of them.

Have you ever observed that any of the magistrates come on particular occasions – on occasion when bushrangers or their friends are brought up? No.

Or that they keep away? The report is, as I stated before, that that particular magistrate did not hesitate to state that he would not sit upon such a case.

He never has sat upon a case of this kind? Not that I am aware of. He was on the Bench I believe when Mick Connell and the two Griffins were charged.

In your opinion, in giving bail in this district, are the magistrates very wise in their discretion as to the amount of bail? I never took particular notice. I know it is a thing I have been very careful about. Clarke’s father

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did not disguise it that he put all Tommy’s faults upon me for not giving him bail.

Do you think it advisable that any special body of police, independent of the general body under the Inspector General’s orders should go out in this district? I do not see how the two could work under one head.

Under the Inspector General do you think it would be advisable to have a special body say of natives of the country, if they could be got, to pursue the bushrangers? It might be but it would be only temporary.

Do you know whether there are any natives who are good bush riders among the police force. I am not aware.

Are you of opinion that the present force are good horsemen? Some of them are very good riders.

Are they the style of men you would select for such a district as this? I think they are, I do not know that they could get any better.

The President: I wish to

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ask whether in your opinion, the magistrate of the district are of the class best qualified to discharge their duties, or whether better men could be selected in the district? I do not know where you could get better. I have always been of opinion that Braidwood ought to have a Police Magistrate. I think the district requires it.

Upon what grounds? Because we are not sure of regular attendance, and instead of keeping people in the lockup for a week, and bringing Magistrates in every day when there are long investigations, it could always be done by the Police Magistrate.

Are you aware of ant irrregularities taking place? No, I find people are disappointed sometimes in cases requiring two magistrates, but it has been better lately one or two magistrates have been appointed in the immediate neighbourhood.

Does the system of bush telegraphs exist in the district? It is said to.

Have you any idea whether the horses these bushrangers ride are very superior to those

[Page 184]

of the Police? Generally they take the best horses they can get, and they know all the good horses in the district.

Are the inhabitants of the district willing to supply the police with remounts? I think so. I can speak for myself that the police have never come to me and said they wanted a horse, but they had one.

Have any new police stations been formed in the district under the new system of police? Temporary stations have, the station of Ballalaba is looked upon as a temporary station, it has been formed since the bushrangers were out in that neighbourhood so much. When they were committing their depredations I said I could give the police a hut and paddock and a stable for their horses.

When you observed the police in pursuit of these bushranger, have it evver struck you that their trappings and accoutrements were very heavy and calculated to impede their

[Page 185]

action? No, I think not, they always leave behind them the sabres and things they used to wear and their uniform, I think they generally go in bush uniform with their carbines.

Are their horses calculated to overtake or capture these people if they saw them? I do not know, some of them have very good horses, I think upon the whole the stamp of horses is fair.

Are they heavy horses for carrying burdens or horses more calculated for speed? Some are food strong horses and some active light ones.

Is there any difficulty in procuring food strong horses at a reasonable price? I think there is, we all find a difficulty if we want a food horse.

Mr. Fosbery: With reference to Mr Leary’s question with regard to the employment of active young natives in the police, are you aware of any instance in which eligible men of that stamp have applied or been writing to join the police, and have been refused? No.

[Page 186]

There were at one time a lot of young fellows out, three or four parties used to be out here. I think they were all volunteers as they were called.

Were they in any measure successful in their quest? No, I never knew them to be so.

Mr Leary: Under whose supervision were they? I think under the Superintendent, I think they reported to him.

Mr. Fosbery: Do you know that of your own knowledge? I do not. They were to communicate and cooperate with the police, but I do not know whether they went in the direction pointed out to them or whether they went where they pleased.

Can you state whether the arms and saddlery supplied to the police are of a description suitable to their requirements? I think so.

[Page 187]

Uccat MSS
set 508
Item 10

[Page 188]

Braidwood Commission (28)
Thursday 31st January 1867
Follows Thomas Stewart Esq J.P.

Thomas John Roberts, Esquire,
called in an examined:

Mr Cloete: Where do you reside? At Exeter Farm about six miles from Braidwood.

What are you? Stockholder, grazier and farmer.

You are a partner of Mr Hassall I believe? Yes.

How long have you resided in this district? We came to live here about twenty-five years ago, I have been living up here about twenty years.

You are aware bushranging has increased very much during the last two ot three years? Yes, very much.

To what do you attribute its increase? A great deal to the diggings and the young men feeling

[Page 189]

the want of money and being bad character.

Do you know any of the bushrangers who are out now having been in want of money? No, I do not know of their actually being in want of money.

You know the Clarkes and Connells? I know them by seeing them and have bid them good day.

You know their previous history? Yes.

Do you know whether they were forced into the bush from want? No, I should not suppose so. Tommy Clarke always had the name of a horse stealer, but I knew John Clarke travelling on the road as a carrier to the Clyde.

Have resident gentry lost many horses and

[Page 190]

cattle? Yes, a good deal of horses.

Have you yourself lost much by them? I have lost a horse occasionally. I got one back from the police about two months ago.

How was he branded? J.Y. He was taken from our run at Biddidevine I think.

What sort of horse was he? A very nice brown horse.

A fast horse? Not particularly fast.

Where was he taken from? From the bush at Biddidevine.

Were there other horses running there at the same time.? Yes.

Superior horses? Some of them were.

How do you account for their taking an inferior horse when they could get a superior one? I do not

[Page 191]

know, unless it was because he was handier to get.

Are you personally acquainted with the Clarkes? I should know them if I saw them.

When did you see Tommy Clarke last? I have not seen him since he was committed for trial before he broke out of the lock up.

Do you know Smith of Jinden? Yes.

What is his character? I know nothing against his character, I have always heard a very good character of him, except that I heard rumours that he robbed his creditors.

I mean in connection with the bushrangers, as a harbourer – have you ever heard of him in connection with them? No, nor do

[Page 192]

I believe he ever had any connection with them.

Do you know Simeon Corey? Yes.

What is his general repute? He is generally reputed a harbourer of bushrangers.

How long has he had this character? For the last four or five years I have heard of his having this character.

What is your opinion of the conduct of the police in the pursuit of these men? So far as I have seen they have done their duty.

If it has been stated that they only ride along the highroad and never go into the bush, is such the result of your experience? No, from what I have seen I believe they have thoroughly done their duty.

What is your opinion of the Superintendent of

[Page 193]

Police, Mr Orridge? I believe he is a very efficient gentleman.

What is your opinion of the Bench of Magistrates, have you found them lenient, one sided, or the reverse? I have attended the Court as a spectator and as far as I could see they conduct it in a proper manner.

Have you ever thought the sentences light? Yes, I have in one or two cases, if I had been the Judge I should have given one or two sentences heavier.

Will you mention them? Particularly in Beadley’s case, I should have given him fifteen years.

What did he get? Six years. He was a notorious bad character.

Do you remember one of the Clarkes being sentenced

[Page 194]

to be imprisoned till the rising of the Court for illegally riding a horse? I think I do, but I do not recollect the circumstances.

Is that a sentence that could have any effect upon him? Not the slightest for a character of that sort.

Who was the Judge? Mr. Weymoth, I think. I merely have a faint glimmering recollection fo the circumstances.

How long ago is that? Three or four years ago.

What has become of this James Clarke? I believe he is in gaol for passing stolen notes.

Has he connected with these outlaws since that? No, he could not have been.

Have you known any instances of any of the magistrates being at all unwilling to assist the police? No.

Do you know of any of then ever having expressed

[Page 195]

themselves as not caring to carry out their official duties stringently? No, I have not. It is likley that you may allude to Mr Hassall. There are a great many reports about Mr Hassall, but I believe he would do his duty as between man and man. He once said to me that he would rather not have anything to do with the bushrangers if he could avoid it.

In his official capacity?

Yes.

Did he give any reason?

No.

Are you aware that Tommy Clarke surrendered himself about three years ago? I am.

Whom did he surrender to? I believe he came to Mr Hassall.

[Page 196]

Do you remember the particulars? No. I did not know he gave himself up to Mr Hassall till afterwards.

Did Mr Hassall come in with him? I believe he did.

Are you aware that Tommy Clarke was at Moruya races immediately afer that? I do not know.

Are you aware he had horses in training? I did not know that he had at that time. He used to have "Fireball", "Barebones," and another.

Was a stockman of yours called Bungy tried at this Court at any time? Yes, he was tried here.

He was prosecuted on one occasion by you? No, not by me, he was a lad in our employ, and he was brought up at Araulen for stealing

[Page 197]

a beast, but he turned approver.

Was a man named Perry tried with him? Yes, Perry was convicted.

Did you supply him with legal assistance on that occasion? No, I did not.

Did Mr Hassall? No, I believe not.

Do you know if the bushrangers are at present well mounted? I believe they are. Our stockcman, Gilligan was stuck up the other day, and he told me Tommy Clarke was riding a horse that had been left in our charge, you might almost call him ours. The others had not very good horses.

What horses had Gilligan with him at the time? Two of ours.

[Page 198]

Were they good horses? Very good horses.

Can you account for their not taking these horses in exchange for their own? No, I cannot.

Did you hear Gilligan say that Tommy Clarke charged him with having told a lie in stating he had been stuck up by them, Clarke making use of the situation at the same time, "you know b----y well I would not touch you or any body belonging to you"? No, he did not tell us that. But some time ago Gilligan was stuck up, and he accused Clarke of doing it. Smith of Jinden told me afterwards that Clarke told hm, it was not he (Clarke) that stuck him up, but a man named Riley, who was shot by detective McGlone.

[Page 199]

Did Smith report this? I do not know.

Do you know any instance of any magistrate about here having known the whereabouts of these bushrangers without reporting it? No.

Do you know anything of the special police that came up a short time ago? No, except that they staid at my house one night, and Carroll send one of his men with his compliments to know if I could lend him a horse, saddle, and bridle, and I did so.

Have you ever heard the police express themselves disparagingly of Carroll and his party, or saying they would not assist them? I never heard anything of that sort.

[Page 200]

You know noting of what Mr Hassall did previous to bringing Clarke in? No, I have not the slightest idea.

Do you know if he had him at his house? I do not know indeed. I do not know even where he saw him.

Do you think the Bench of Magistrates have sufficient superintendence over publicans? No, I attribute a great deal of the bushranging to the public houses having the dances of a night. I find the lads in our employ going there in spite of my prohibiting it. I objected to it at one of the public houses, Miller’s at Jembaicumbene, and the application was refused, but I believe the thing is carried on the same ever. It is the most vile thing in the district, that dancing.

They cannot have music and dancing without

[Page 201]

perversion? they would not grant it if it were objected to.

Is it not the duty of the police to object? They do not see them. This man applied and Sergeant Duffy asked one if there was any objection, and I said certainly, but the man has dancing now without leave every week.

Is it not the duty of the police to inquire into this? It is a very hard matter for the police to do it, because they do not begin until eight or nine at night. I think it is the duty of everyone in the neighbourhood to report it.

Do you think such complaints would be well supported by the Bench

[Page 202]

if they were made - that they would severly visit these people with punishment? I think so.

Are there police at Majors’ Creek? Yes.

Does this man Bungy use your brand? No, he has no right to use our brand, and he does not to our knowledge.

Is his brand the same as yours? No. He is not now in our employ.

Is he a stockholder himself? Not that I know of. He is living with a man named Galvin, at Majors’ Creek, at present

Do you think the police have been sufficient for the suppression of crime here? Hardly because the police has so much to

[Page 203]

content against with the many telegraphs working. I think the police go out too publicly, the bushrangers know as much about the police movements, a few hours after they go out, as the police themselves.

Have the police had any civil duties attaached to them besides their own? they came to my house collecting the Electoral Roll and Agricultural Statistics, it would take up the time of one man, but three men came to our place.

Would it be safe to one man to go about by himself? It would be quite safe for a policeman to go about as a private individual. Might he not be stuck up the same as other

[Page 204]

individuals? Yes.

Would it not have a very bad effect to have a policeman stuck up? They have been stuck up.

Mr Fosbery: Have you many out stations on your property? Two.

Who are they in charge of? One at Biddidevine is in charge of Rich and Nagy and the one at Araulen is in charge of William Hughes.

Have either of these men ever represented to you or your partner that they were likely to receive visits from the bushrangers? No.

Have they ever received instructions as to what they were to do if the bushrangers did come? I We have always told them to give information at once.

[Page 205]

Are you aware that any members of the police force attended these dances? No, I never heard or saw them.

The President: Mr Hassall is a partner of yours? Yes.

I think you stated Mr Hassall would rather not take part in bushranging cases as a magistrate? He said he would rather not, in fact for fear of being shot.

If all the magistrates had this feeling, would not crime increase very much? If they all stood aloof of course it would, but I do not think he would shirk it if it were necessary.

Colonel Richardson: What is your brand for horses? B crossways, but we have many horses branded B in the ordinary way, that was the original brand

[Page 206]

of our family. Cattle BA on the ribs.

What is Bungy’s brand. Whatever I have seen him brand it has been with H.

Did he use that brand at the time he was your servant? He was born on the farm I think he had a cow or two with that brand.

Has Mr Hassall got any separate brand? No.

There is a person named Badpeny in your employ? He is a cousin of my own, he looks after the stockmen.

He was stuck up a short time since with a son of Mr. Myers? Yes.

He had a couple of horses withw him? Yes.

How was it the bushrangers did not take them? I do not know.

[Page 207]

Were they valuable? Not very, one was a hackney ride and one was a gig horse, they would be of no value to them whatever.

Did you ever have any dealings in cattle with Clarkes people? No.

With Perry you had? Yes, three butchers in Araulen we supplied regularly every week and Perry was one.

Mr Leary: Do you remember buying some cattle almost 15 months ago from two young men named John and Thomas Mullins? I had nothing to do with that, Mr Hassall bought them for Mr. DeMestre. Mr Hassall bought the brand of a man’s cattle near Boree fro Mr. DeMestre, and while they were collecting

[Page 208]

collecting them he bought some more from Mullins. I never saw either the cattle or the men. It was no transaction of Hassall and Roberts at all.

You have never been stuck up by these bushrangers yourself? No, never, I never saw them although I believe I was within twenty yards of them the other day, so Clarke told Gilligan.

They generally ride very good horses? Yes, if they are riding that horse of Mr Simpson’s, he is a very fine horse.

Do you know if they have taken many horses from owners in this District? I do not know.

You have some good horses running in paddocks? Yes.

Are they They could be easily taken? It would be very hard to take them I think, I do not think any ordinary

[Page 209]

man could run them into the yard and take them away at night. but we have sent many of our good horses away to Shoalhaven, where there is no risk of them.

Did Gilligan report that he had been stuck up? He did when he came home. I went to him and asked what about giving information, and when he said Mr Tweedie’s man had been stuck up and asked if it was necessary he should go, I said no, I did not see any use of two of them going.

[Page 210]

Uncat MSS
508
Item 10

[Page 211]

Braidwood Commission # 36
Friday 1 February 1867
Follows Mr A Anson

The Reverend James Allan called in and examined:

The President: You are the clergyman of the Church of England in this District? I am.

Have you been long resident here? Close on twenty three years.

What is the extent of your District? I am paid by the government for Braidwood and fourteen miles round, but my original license was for the whole Country of St Vincent.

Would it extend to the Jingera? No. the Braidwood district extends over the Shoalhaven.

According to the subscribersI gave in to the Government I was able to go fourteen miles beyond the town of Braidwood. That took me over into the county of Murray and also a portion of Argyle, and I have a general knowledge of all the district.

[Page 212]

Your immediate ministration is confined within fourteen miles of Braidwood? It is not properly confined to that, because I have occasional duties, but still my whole time is required for Braidwood and the vicinity.

What is your opinion of the state of crime in the district? If you wish me to give an opinion as to the general state of morals I can speak on that subject. The state of morals is upon the whole satisfactory, and has greatly improved in the town of Braidwood of late.

Can you say anything of the country districts near Braidwood? Oranmeir district is not so favourably situated as Braidwood and some other parts, because there is very little clerical superintendence in that quarter.

[Page 213]

Is there a total absence of clerical superintendence in the surrounding districts outside the limit of fourteen miles? Of late, since my church here was built, there has been great defect in that respect. I have received occasional assistance from the goldfields chaplain, but his duty is so great now at Araulen that he will be unable to render me any further assitance. A missionary or catechlist is required for these outlying districts.

Is it your opinion that the districts outside the limits of fourteeen miles are now totally without religious instruction, as far as the members of the Church of England are concerned? No, I could not say that. Our people, even in the worst district, Oranmeir have been visited occasionally.There are decent respectable people there not in the least connected with crime.

[Page 214]

Have they any minister visiting them now? Not at present.

Are there any schools? No, no education.

Would that remark apply to the Jingera? It would. Any services of any kind are not of much use in these outlying districts. Occasional visits are perceptible productive if no perceptible good, they merely light fires in the bush, as it were which go out again. ther sermon a month in each district is all I shall be able to get done by a catechlist when I get one, and that would have no perceptible effect upon the morals of the people.

Mr Leary: Supposing they were educated preparatry to that, by good schools or itinerant schoolmasters? I think it is very important

[Page 215]

to talk on that subject a little. My opinion is that no system can suit the Colony but a compulsory system of education as in Prussia.

The President: In this particular district do you mean? I presume it will hold in all the districts of the Colony. And even that cannot be made to suit people in the remote parts, and therefore even if it were asopted it would be necessary to make it imperative only on these children who live within two miles of a school. My cure would be that every child between six and twelve years of age should be compelled to go to school, or fines should be imposedf upon the parents. I would propose that those beyond two miles should be attended by an itinerant schoolmaster, as in the Highlands of Scotland.

You attribute the prevalence of crime in the district to the deficiency of education and the want of moral instruction?

[Page 216]

That is one reason, but not all. I should like to give you my views as to the kind of education. You will observe that when I make these remarks I am by no means a man of illiberal principles. I do not go all the length in crying down the National System. So far from that, it has received my full support for fourteen years. Still I felt a defect in it, though I gave it fair play, and sought to establish no opposition school. The defect is this, that the knowledge is merely intellectual, and the religious knowledge is chiefly historical. But the history of the Scriptures is not religion. It contains nothing of the Truth or the precepts of Christianity, which can alone improve the morals of men.Teaching itself is not all that is

[Page 217]

necessary. Religious education would, I think be, productive of good, as against bushranging. Another reason is that the young are not sent to my Church or any school that trained by their parents to any industry or taught any trade, and consequently they have not the means of earnings or assistance. They supply themselves with funds by stealilng. They commence with stealing calves and rearing the,. Then they go to stealing cattle and selling them, and stealing horses, and from that they go to the highway. I am told the Clarkes’ father taught them when young to steal calves. That was the beginning of it. But surprisingly they did not appear to me to have worse dispections than boys generally have.

Do you consider them members of your flock? They are not members of my flock, they were Father O’Brien’s people.

[Page 218]

I am not aware there is any criminal belonging to my congregation at large at present, or any serious one.

Are you aware that old John Clarke was a member of the church of England? He never made himself known to me as such. He was married to a Roman Catholic, and he professed to be a Roman Catholic always, he was never understood to be a Protestant.

To what course do you attribute these bushrangers remaining at large? Simply to their numerous connections who are always ready to give them information where the police are, to keep them out of the way.

Beyond the establishment of compulsory schools with itinerant schoolmasters you cannot suggest any other reform in the training of the youth of the district?

[Page 219]

Yes, I was about to say that I attach far more importance to the training of the youth than to the teaching of them, and that does not seem to be properly attended to either in the National or Denomination System. But we are attempting it as far as we can at Braidwood.

What schools are there in Braidwood? We have a demoninational School established here four months ago and succeeding admirably.

The system I recommend so much is partly in force, but not fully carried out as yet.

Do the children in Braidwood attend the schools? Very few of them. But there is a reason for that, that all round Braidwood the country is chiefly sheepwalks. There are very few inhabitants until within eight miles of the town.

[Page 220]

Is it your opinion that the rural state of the district is worse or better than it was some few years ago? It is not worse, it is as good as ever it was since I came here. Of late it has decidely improved. There is crime in it, but the morals of the people are not worse than they were. There are very few people connected with crime.

Would you not call stealing calves crime? That is only by very few families.
If all the rest were the best conducted people in the world, these people would go on with their crimes

Mr Fosbery: Have you frequently visited the Jingera country? No, I have not gone down that far.

[Page 221]

It is the Minister from Monaroo that comes down there.

Have you been to Oranmeir? I used to go there.

Lately? No.

Do you conisder the residents have any opportunity of enjoying religious ordinances? They have not at present. They had till of late. I am trying to get a missionary or catechist, provided the people would help themselves – raise a sufficient sum at least to help.

Is any attention paid to religious rites such as matrimony and baptism? They are regular enough in that way.

They do not live in a state of adultry to your knowledge? No. Even the state of the worst district is not so bad as people may infer from these desperadoes being in it.

Do you approve of the amusements generally participated in by the young in the country –

[Page 222]

I allude to horseracing and public house dancing? Public house dances are a very great evil, but it does not exist to a great extent now.

In Araluen there were a great many, but things have come into better order even in Araluen. the population is not so migratory now. There is a considerable class of people that are setting a very good example in regard to morals and Church going habits, and they seem to be exercising a powerful influence, as great, every bit, as the Chaplains themselves.

If it has been stated to the Commissison that it is the practice in the bush for the youth of both sexes to steal away from their homes to attend these public house dances, can

[Page 223]

you say whether it is the fact, or can you contradict it? I cannot go the length of contradicting it, but it would be new to me if I should hear it.

You spoke of deficiency in training – did you infer that there is too much intellectual teaching? I do not call intellectual teaching training at all. The fault is that it is mere teaching. My views would go to bringing up the young to good habits, and exercising a strong powerful control over the young, and not only so, but training them to a knowledge of Devine Truth, training them to moral duty, and training them to politeness – and that I have always insisted upon as a part of christian morality, according to the Apostle Peter’s precept: "Honor all men,

[Page 224]

love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the King." I think it very important to train them to be courteous in their behaviour. Under the National system they grow up literally as Yankees. It is most extraordinary. They show no respect to any human being, They would scarecly put their hands to their hats if the Queen of England were to pass by.

Is there any part of the Jingera district that could not have religious instruction? I think it must be a neglected district. It lies between two, the Ministere for Maneroo and myself.

Are the Ministers of the various religious denominations represented there? I do not think these is any religious ministration at all.

[Page 225]

The moral character of the people of that district is not high? I would rather not answer any question concerning it at all.

Mr Leary: Have you any knowledge of the Jinden Country? I have not been exactly so far up as that but I have been near it.

That is a portion of your district? It is, but still it is so far out that I have never been able to reach that.

How far is it – forty miles from here? I think it must e more than that.

Would it be desirable in your opinion, that some young and active clergyman or calechist should frequently visit there? Any service that a calechist could render to one place, such as Jinden, would be of very little effect. One sermon a month is just better than nothing, but not much. We have so few people up there that there would not be a field for the a Church of England teacher. They are chiefly Father O’Briens’ up at Jingera.

[Page 226]

Is it not possible to have a school? I am doubtful. An itinerant teacher of course is the only thing that could be employed there.

I presume that would be a good help? It would.

Are the people generally in the Jingera country of a very low class? There are very few people up there. Edward Smith I have know a little.

What is your opinion of the character of Edward Smith? I have never known anything bad of him. I have found him a very civil man. Surmises have been made concerning him of late, but I was not prepared to form any bad opinion of Edward Smith.

These surmises pertain to a very serious matter? They do. I confess I would feel surprise if W. Smith

[Page 227]

were connected with anything of that sort. But he was never a Church goer.

Do you not think it would conduce very much to morality if there were the ministration’s of religion constantly there? Yes, but how is that to be done, it is impractible, how are the funds to be raised. Consider how the people are scattered, one family here and another ten miles away.

Do you think there is not religious zeal enough, if appeals were made to people in a better position? The only hope I could have from it would be to have two itinerant school masters. The people would be very glad to help themselves.

Has the attempt ever been made to obtain itinerant school masters? No, the system has never been tried yet.

[Page 228]

That you would recommend strongly? Yes. Here we have enough to do ourselves, and the claims made upon us are so various we cannot do everything. I would recommend that two itinerant schoolmasters sent to Jingera.

You are aware that large funds are collected in the city of Sydney and other places for the blacks in other counties – do you think if such appeals were made for unfortunate whites in these districts the people would be deaf to the appeals? I believe it would be exceedingly appropriate and would put down a great deal of that absurdity and excitement we find prevailing about things that do not concern people much. I certainly agree with you that attention to white

[Page 229]

children growing up is of vastly more importance. But such a view would be by no means a popular view.

You think the good results would be far greater? The religious ministrations that can be given there from the inadequate funds we have are not worth talking of, but two steady schoolmasters would do a great deal of good there, and they would not be hard to pay, because themselves would give them nearly all the support they would require.

Have you always been treated with respect when you have visited this Jinden country? I never have been treated with disrespect by a simple human being, and I have always been treated with most respect by the Roman Catholics. I have met with the greatest respect from all the people.

[Page 230]

So that we have a right to presume that any a clerygman of any persuasion going amongst these people would be treated with consideratiton? He would be treated with the greatest respect. But where would he go to? He could not get two horses together.

What are the numbers attending your denominational school here? I think there are severty five on the list at present.

In the Jingera country have not a great many people been for many years considered cattle stealers? A great portion of them are suspected. The parents of the children in these outlying districts do little more for them then feed them. With reference to the district generally, it will be a very wrong influence, if people at a distance should consider the cases of crime that exist arise from any low state of morality in the district.

[Page 231]

Braidwood Commission #37
Friday 1 February 1867
Follows Revd J Allen

Mr Edmund Duxbury, called and examined: -

The President: You are the landlord of the Commercial Hotel? Yes.

Do you remember an Amateur Theatrical performance there some time since? Yes.

Were many people present? Yes.

Were there any members of the police? I recollect seeing one standing up inside the door as they were performing.

Did you see W. Perry there, A Rodd, Newmann and Payne? Yes.

Did you observe anything peculiar? No.

Was the policeman you saw inside in uniform? Yes.

Had he his revolver? No, I did not see any recolver.

[Page 232]

What was his name – was it Gilder? No, not at this time. On Boxing night Gilder was at my place the worse for liquor. He had his revolver, but he gave it to me over the bar, and I put it by while he went upstairs.

Was he in uniform? No.

Did you see the revolver on him at any time? No.

Had he boots and breeches? Yes, and a Crimean shirt. He was without his jacket.

Would anyone in the district know he was policeman? You would not have known it unless you knew him personally.

Do most the people know him? Yes.

Was he very drunk? Not very. You could see he was the worse for drink.

[Page 233]

Had he much to say. Middling? Did you see him doing anything? He broke a lamp of mine.

Accidently? I think it was accidently, he nearly upset the table or something of that kind.

Did Constable Gilder at any time within the last few months, at your place, act in a manner that was discreditable or disgraceful? He did not act very gentlemanly. I was disgusted with his company, in fact I told him he would have to go out. He insulted one man in my bar.

What man? A man at Jacob’s Steam Mill named Schuber.

Do you know whether he came to the piano and broke open the top? That has been reported. Somebody broke it open.

[Page 234]

Are you aware whether he took any particular flight down the stairs? No, I was in the bar at the time.

Did you see Gilder at the Amateur performance? No, I do not recollect seeing him at my place except that one time.

Did you ever see Gilder drunk before or since? No.

Did you ever see him hit anybody on the hat with a stick? No.

Did you charge him for the lamp? I gave him an account for it today.

What did he say? He said he would pay it in a few days.

Has he a large account at your house? No account at all excepting the lamp. He never had any other account with me.

[Page 235]

After observing this disgraceful conduct on the part of Constable Gilder, did you report it to his superiors? I did not know he was a policeman at the time.

When he was in this drunken state did you consider it safe to give him his loaded revolver? He seemed to be querrelsome.

Is a drunken man in a querrelsome condition a suitable person to give a revolver to? W hen he asked me I gave it him back.

Did you not imagine he must be a policeman when you saw him with the revolver? I did not at all.

[Page 236]

Uncat Mss
Set 508
Item 10

[Page 237]

Braidwood Commission #38
Friday 1 February 1867
Follows Mr E Duxbury

Mr J B Schuler , called in and examined: -

Mr Fosbery: What are you? A Miller? Resident in Braidwood? Yes.

Do you remember an entertainment at the Commercial Hotel? Yes.

When? on the 7th January.

What was it? An amateur dramatic performance.

Did you see any police there? Yes, Constable Gilder.

Was he in uniform? No, he had a white jacket on.

Was he drunk or sober? He was pretty well on, he was not so bad when he came in at first.

Did he drink much there? He got worse for

[Page 238]

liquor after the performance was over.

Did you consider him intoxicated? Yes.

Did he misconduct himself? He did.

What did he do? i was sitting alongside the violin player, a country man of mine, a German, and Gilder came up to him two or three times. There was a piano there, and shortly before the conclusion he came up and just tore the lid right off; I could not tell whether it was locked, but it sounded as if is was torn.

Did he do any other damage? Not that I know of.

Did he misbehave himself to you? Yes.

How? When the party broke up and they all went downstairs, I was about the fourth person going down,

[Page 239]

and before me there was a female with a child in her arms, Gilder commenced to jump down stairs three or four steps at a time, the stairs turned round at an angle, and, as far as I can recollect, five or six steps up from the bottom he shoved me right down.

Purposely? I do not know whether he did it purposely or whether he could not hold himself, but he shoved me and nearly knocked down the female and child. I turned round and said "You had better mind what you are about" upon which he said "You b----y German b—r, you had better come outside."

Implying by that that he wanted to fight you? Yes.

Had he his revolver on him at the time? Yes.

Was it loaded and capped? I do not know,

[Page 240]

He had it in the case at his side.

Did he insult anyone else besides you? Not that I am aware of.

Did he strike any person? No, not that I know of.

Did you see Perry, of Rodd Brothers, there? He was there. As far as I recollect Mr Perry was the first one going down the stairs.

You did not see Gilder strike any person? No.

Did you know he was a policeman? Yes.

Did you report his conduct to any of his superiors? No.

Why? I thought I might have some other opportunity. If he came again at me I might report it.

[Page 241]

Mr Leary: Is constable Gilder well known to everybody in Braidwood? Yes, in fact he is well known for drinking.

Is he so well known for that, that the Superintendent ought to know it? He tries to keep it as quiet as he can.

If it is so apparent to the general public, do you not think it very extraordinary the Superintendent does not know it? Yes.

How many times have you seen Constalbe Gilder drunk in the last six months? I do not go out much. I have seen him drunk about twice myself, at the races once, before this.

Did you ever see any member of the police with the Miss Clarkes? No.

[Transcribed by Lynne Frizell for the State Library of New South Wales]